10 January, 2007

Avenging Wrath is a Nerf? Ohmygah!

This guy is right on the mark, even if he doesn't explain that much behind his reasoning. Mass Dispell was put in was to combat our increased offensive abilities: on the same level Priests get a spell to gimp our defense we get a spell to increase our offense.

The big question is, where does this leave healers? Arguably they are the ones who take the worst hit on this because the bubble is a crucial tool in PVP for healing. Avenging Wrath contributes nothing for them. Nothing. Yet Priests can dispel their bubble.

That's why I'd like to see the spell give an increase of spell damage. That way all Paladin builds can make use of it: Ret Pallies can use it for higher damage, Prot Pallies can use it to get better aggro and Holy Pallies can use it for healing (and damage). Nobody really loses and everyone benefits regardless of play style.

What do you think of that?

18 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

How about no? You neglect to state the obvious fact that this would vastly overpower retribution builds. Its not a matter of all builds being able to use it, but rather a matter of Retribution benefiting too much from this suggestion.

Let me guess, you're planning a Ret build for PvP aren't you? Ret pallies do damage from both spellpower and melee. Blizzard has already stated that Ret was doing too much damage hence the CS nerf. This change would once again push Ret builds with Judgements and CS over the top. Seriously when will Paladins stop pushing crap like this around? This is never going to happen.

12:53 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

In order to come close to the effect of avenging wrath, the added spell damage buff would have to be larger otherwise it would be a huge nerf since AW includes white damage - something on the order of +50% of your spell damage. Now imagine the wailing and crying of Holy priests if Holy paladins had an ability to buff their +healing by 150% for 20 seconds every three minutes, and can be coupled with divine favor for a guaranteed megacrit heal. That would be an obscene amount of healing and would again throw paladins in the back of the raid.

1:20 AM  
Blogger Mastgrr said...

To anon. #1 I'm not speccing Ret. If you read my blog you'd probably know that I prefer Holy for PVP.

To anon. #2 Obviously it would have to be refocused to be balanced for all three trees, and I guess the logical conclusion of that would be a nerf to the Ret-aspect of it.

1:55 AM  
Anonymous Xgelis said...

Let me get this straight, for the title of this thread, Nerf as in we lose 1 defensive spell and gain 1 offensive spell ?

2:44 AM  
Anonymous Suicidal Zebra said...

"That's why I'd like to see the spell give an increase of spell damage. That way all Paladin builds can make use of it: Ret Pallies can use it for higher damage, Prot Pallies can use it to get better aggro and Holy Pallies can use it for healing (and damage). Nobody really loses and everyone benefits regardless of play style."

Watch it that Mastgrr, you're getting awfully close to a good suggestion of what Divine Illumination *should* have been ;)

Personally, I don't think that AW is even all that much of a buff, considering it's type (magical) and what it provides. 30% increased damage is all well and good, but there is also the 'Purge/Spellsteal/stun/gouge Me" animation for PvP fun. That said, I can't really fault it from a damage/tanking PvE perspective (an effective 30% increased threat is pretty handy on the initial aggro grab), I just don't really think that such a bonus to healing would be worthwhile given the knock-on nerf the offensive proportion is likely to receive. Perhaps I could justify 20% damage/10% Healing, but that's it.

2:47 AM  
Blogger Mastgrr said...

Xgelis said...
Let me get this straight, for the title of this thread, Nerf as in we lose 1 defensive spell and gain 1 offensive spell?


For healing Paladins at least.

3:12 AM  
Blogger Vaelin said...

Avenging Wrath gives us options. To say that it nerfs healing assumes that it's the reason they added Mass Dispel. This is a pretty vague assumption. You state, "Mass Dispel was put in to combat our offensive abilities." How do you know it wasn't added to combat our abilities as an invulnerable, unstoppable PvP healer for 12 seconds?

Try this one on for size: Avenging Wrath was never added and they still nerf DS with MD. Think about that?

Ret has already been nerfed with the changes to Vengeance and CS. Let's stop calling for more, shall we? Holy will be potent enough once we pick up Seal of Vengeance.

3:34 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

How do you know it wasn't added to combat our abilities as an invulnerable, unstoppable PvP healer for 12 seconds?
I believe one of the mods/blues actually said that is what it was put in for at one point.

Saying Avenging Wrath doesn't do anything for healers is like saying being able to heal themselves does nothing for retribution paladins. Even if you are a hardcore healer who tries to stay out of melee, there are times when you have to swing your weapon in pvp, or cast holy shock as an offensive spell.

5:25 AM  
Blogger Mastgrr said...

Try this one on for size: Avenging Wrath was never added and they still nerf DS with MD. Think about that?

Good question. But there has to be a reason as to why Mass Dispel is level 70 and Avenging Wrath is also level 70 - levels and class balance tend to be mutual. If they weren't intertwined with one reason or another I don't see as to why Blizzard wouldn't give either of the spells maybe a bit earlier (strictly hypothetical).

Even if you are a hardcore healer who tries to stay out of melee, there are times when you have to swing your weapon in pvp, or cast holy shock as an offensive spell.

You're absolutely right, obviously we need an offense regardless of how we play. All I'm really requesting is for it to be more versatile and fair towards all specs. I mean, there's no denying that if there's any tree that gets the best bang for the buck out of Avenging Wrath it's Retribution. It just comes to me as slightly unfair as to Blizzards move to kinda give the short end of the stick to healing Paladins.

7:22 AM  
Blogger Ghmou / Micah said...

I kind of agree.

Since Avenging Wrath will rarely be useable in group PvP (what with all the Priests, Shamans, and Mages running around to Dispel/Purge/Steal it), it should probably be given a secondary benefit at the cost of reduced damage output.

I'd happily go for 20% damage and 10% spelldamage, I suppose. This benefits healers, and I don't think will blow Ret out of proportion. If anything it's "nerf" to the value of AW for Ret.

Still... What is it FOR if not for PvP?

The answer is obviously the following:

1) If you're Tanking, you get increased threat.
2) If you're DPSing (in a raid!), you'll do more damage.
3) If you're healing (PvP, PvE), you're SoL. Save Forebearance for the Bubble. =D

Keep in mind, of course, that even though it can be Dispelled/Purged **which is ridiculous, in my opinion, since it causes Forebearance anyway** you can still load up on cheap buffs to hopefully keep it from getting removed. For example, BoMight Rank1 is 20 mana. Spamming that when you're not otherwise using your universal cooldown can give you at LEAST 50% protection against purging from a single target. If you have a seal up as well (say, SoC R1), this increases your protection to 66%. Of course, against multiple dispellers (and there will be more than one when you sprout those wings!), you're screwed.

I'm just babbling. Goodnight.

7:33 AM  
Blogger Vaelin said...

That AW and MD are both at level 70 are coincidental. You neglect to point out that level 70 also brings eligibility for ranked arena play. Players aren't eligible for climbing the ladder and obtaining arena tokens until they've hit that point. Until then, there's no real harm done in allowing Paladins 12 seconds of "overpowered" healing domination. You may hurt some pride in the practice arenas, but you won't be having a quantitatively adverse effect on teams that choose not to include a Paladin.

If you really want to boost your PvP healing potency, then Blizzard has given you the tools and means to do it. Light's Grace is one of the most powerful to come to mind. Stack this with the Scrolls of Blinding Light and your follow-up Holy Lights will take less time to cast than Flash of Light. Combine this with a gear set like Redemption, and you'll be sure to inspire more than your fair share of "ZOMG nerf Paladin healing!" posts on the forums.

If anything, our healing was one of the strongest facets of the class (a fact some are glad to see finally getting challenged by other things like, oh you know, the fact that we wear PLATE and are more MELEE oriented - a luxury Shamans and Priests don't have). It got buffed with the 2.0 talent changes. Be happy.

There's probably a very good reason why Avenging Wrath caters almost particularly to a Retribution build. With substantially higher stamina levels (to give you an idea, even the Goblin Rocket Launcher trinket adds a whopping 45 stamina - that's right, a trinket), players are going to be harder and take longer to kill. I have a feeling that our damage output curve will level off on the way to 70 like it did from 50-60. AW will be there as an option for those who sacrificed a great deal in the way of healing and survivability to spec for damage. Let's not forget that it can be purged/dispelled/stolen, and yet still procs Forbearance.

AW is a fitting buff that will require caution and strategy to use. It was added, in my opinion, to help balance out a weaker facet of the class and bring it up to par with the other two at level 70. To change it in such a way as has been proposed (and subsequently nerf its current potency for Ret) would simply throw the balance off again.

8:23 AM  
Anonymous Xgelis said...

Hey mastgrr, thanks for clearing my mind up. :)

9:31 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Holy for PVP, way to be. Not only do you retain most of the utility of the paladin, but with good spell power can do some serious damage as well.

Think outside the box.

4:31 PM  
Blogger Brian said...

A couple things to note.

First, Retribution will always out damage Holy. Retribution benefits from both attack power and spell power while Holy benefits only from spell power. Furthermore, Retribution scales better than Holy since weapon DPS increases the effectiveness of several Retribution abilities. So, for example, Crusader Strike benefits from spell power, attack power, and weapon DPS. Holy Shock benefits only from Spell power.

Second, Holy Wrath will not be as good as some assert. It's like Divine Shield. Looks flashy and cool at first, but if you use it, you realize it's problems.

8:24 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Keep in mind that priests will be MDing from a distance and (apart from arenas, think BGs here) holy paladins will be healing from a distance as well. I don't personally think a priest is going to wade into the thick of combat to MD a healing paladin...when they can just MD everyone in that bunched up group. Just a thought. So the "nerf" cry is situational at best, and probably not that much of an issue.

9:21 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"I'd happily go for 20% damage and 10% spelldamage, I suppose. This benefits healers, and I don't think will blow Ret out of proportion. If anything it's "nerf" to the value of AW for Ret."

And on the post in general... you are nuts.

Weren't you one of the loudest complainers about the Ret nerf... now you are suggesting an even worse one??

30% increase in damage option is awesome. So what about mass dispell. It randomly removes one thing from people in a small radius. You never have to bubble around priests almost. And if you are fighting a priest you won't be healing.

I am Prot... this kind of talk would be a massive nerf to every line.

9:55 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sorry, but I have to call this bullshit.

first of all ,the ability is called Avenging Wrath. Why should an Avenging Wrath increase your healing done? This is like asking for your healing spells to damage the enemy.

Second, Avenging Wrath helps everywhere, but healing. You deal more dmg, when yo uare holy or prot, you generate more aggro as prot, since you deal more dmg, Avenging Wrath increases all dmg done, not only physical

Third point is, why do you have such a fear of mass dispel? Do you imagine, you pop Ds, the priest instantly casts mass dispel and poof it's gone? It isn't that way.
Mass Dispel is a 1.5sec cast which costs 1200 Mana, Priests will rarely use it and in organized pvp, your teammates will try to lock out the priest anyway.

But most importantly, Mass dispel CAN remove DS, but it won't necessrarily do so! Even when you are soloing, you have at least 1 additional magic buff on yourself, unless you are constantly purged/dispelled. When you then pop DS and get mass dispelled it may just as well choose to dispel any of your other buffs instead of DS, so basically, the chance to dispel DS is 33%, since you'll have a seal and a blessing active, perhaps it's even lower, when you get additional buffs, which weren't purged.
Additionally you can put some talent points into Prot to get Stoicsm, which grants you a 30% chance that the mass dispel fails at all, in case it chooses one of your own buffs.
I doubt priests will even try to dispel your DS after casting it a few times on you and seeing, that DS is still up, which means.

Finally, why exactly is it in better in pvp to pop Avenging wrath, which increases your healnig done but can be dispelled by shamans, priests, felhunters and stolen by mages rather than popping DS, which can be dispelled by a single ability?

And for PvE concerns, I'd rather have DS ready than having another 'increases healing done by x for 20sec' trinket, which causes forebearance

12:19 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mass Dispel is a 1.5sec cast which costs 1200 Mana

Enough said. Priests suck in PvP healing, always have and always will. As soon as people see them healing they get assist trained and die in 2 secs due to being in cloth, easily counterspelled, have no escape abilities, a crappy scaling bubble that gets taken away in one white crit (gg 1.3k bubble when hunters/mages crit for 4k and warriors white crit for 2k), and need I say more about Holy Crapola, LOLwell, Circle of Terrible and other stupid Priest Holy 11/21/31/41 talents?

You have no idea how good you have it as a paladin of any spec.

5:50 PM  

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