08 January, 2007

Ferlol Can Tank Nef, Can Prot?

One of the Druids in my guild just tanked Nefarian (I'm the one Consecration-spamming up front). We downed him on the first attempt, plus it was a very smooth kill. A noticeable fact is that he had 11k health when fully buffed.

Here's my favorite memory of the entire experience:

This just makes me wonder if it is truly possible for Paladins to do the very same thing. What do you guys think?

Curiously enough...after several weeks since 2.0 of downing Nefarian we still haven't had a single Shaman call - yet Shaman loot continues to drop. Hmmmm..... (Edit: Doh, as mentioned in comments: x class has to be in the raid and alive for calls to happen)


Anonymous Anonymous said...

Let's just be clear about Paladin Tanking....

At lvl 70 we start with 20% Less base Stamina than warriors - Strike 1

Sacred duty adds 6% Stamina. Warriors Talent adds 10% - Strike 2

Ardent Defender can be Leapfrogged easily making it a questionable Talent unless facing a Boss with little high end Damage (seen many of those ?) - Strike 3.

Warriors have Last stand - Strike 4

Druids have a significantly higher HP pool - Strike 5

Reading the Beta forums the one proponent (Donar ?? or similar) has spent all his time getting the right gear & focused solely on tanking.

Yet he still finds Paladin's to be the third best Tank...

Sure we are better than we were, but if the "stuff" we are able to Tank can be done by a heavier Holy/Ret Build really why bother..

Until Paladin's are competitive with Druids/Warriors at handling spike damage it just isn't going to happen period.

Ok there will be a few diehards who will keep trying to make it work (i'll probably be one of them)

But the general population will still take a Warrior/Druid over a Paladin wherever possible.

Let's remember if you spec 41 pts into Prot your damage is meaningless & your healing is gimp.

Druids Get Damage & Tanking in one tree.

Paladin Tanking is a far away dream. It's time to get real

9:27 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Class calls only come if there's at least one of that class alive, I believe.

12:15 PM  
Anonymous Pious said...

Hi there,

Last week I had the pleasure to join 'Wing' a paladin from Rise and Shine (EU Twisting Nether) when he tanked Nefarian. He was very well itemised for tanking (tanking stuff from AQ40), and used only the 'Spirit of Zanza' buff pot. Despite this he had a crap load of HP (think it was 10k).

The only scary point was when Nefarian landed and the healers were a bit slow off the mark, and he went down to <20%, but Ardent Defender kicked in and the rest of the battle went fine. In fact, it went much quicker than normal due to everyone being able to unload max DPS due to his insane aggro on Neff.

A DPSadin in the raid frapsed the whole event, and Wing is currently editing it. I'll let you know as soon as I see it's uploaded.

I agree with the above poster that something else needs to be done about our tanking ability to put it on level with Druids'. However I've noticed recently that I have quite a bit more armour value than anything else on the raids I'm on, and I'm not particularly well geared compared to the others.

12:25 PM  
Anonymous Xgelis said...

Well it may be a far away dream.. but I hope we can push it to the max and tank at at the best of the class.. but won't go for the BEST class to tank.
(Apologies, unable to phrase out clearly what I'm trying to voice.)

2:28 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Was that with or without fearward?

3:09 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

we are better at main tanking the draknoids, not nef.. I did this last night with 40/0/11 build

3:39 PM  
Anonymous snow said...

Hmm, your post is full of half-truths and misinformation. Warriors start with 20% base hp, that's true. That's about 1200 hp, though. The warrior talent is 10% strength, 5% stamina- not 10% stamina, so we have the edge there. Last Stand? Yeah it's nice, I don't know that it matters anymore than ardent defender. If you've actually used the talent to tank bosses you'd know that it does save your life- somewhat rarely, but it works. For every boss that hits hard enough to require shield wall there is a boss with a potent debuff only divine shield can remove. We by far out-mitigate and outthreat everybody in multi-mob pulls, so that's two niches right there only a paladin tank can provide. Bears no longer have more hp than us by a huge margin; top level bear tanks have maybe 2k more hp than the equivalent paladin. Do we have our limitations? Sure, and I hope blizzard addresses them. But there's already enough here to be one of the main tanks of a guild, rather than the current gimmick "let the pally tank this trivial content."

Back to the OP, I'm sure it could be done. If my next BWL raid has a dwarf priest, I'll ask to do it and fraps it for you. Still, I think Nef counts as trivial content at this point :P

5:55 PM  
Anonymous rush said...

ther is one other thing clear about this..

its over nine thousand.

6:23 PM  
Anonymous Pious said...

This is a post on the EU paladin forums where Wing (EU Twisting Nether) has posted videos of tanking Nefarian, Noth and Anub.

I was there on Nefarian - enjoy.


6:44 PM  
Blogger Ghmou / Micah said...

Yes, it's sad but true. Protection Paladins can never aspire to being as powerful as Feral druids when it comes to tanking, and never even CLOSE to being as powerful when it comes to damage.

The reasons are simple:
1) Druids have a simpler tanking mechanic: Lots of armor and high dodge. Threat from damage with a small multiplier.

2) Better itemization because +stats are cheaper than +parry, +dodge, +def, +block, +spelldamage.

Check out my thread on this very thing here:

The main thrust of the thread is that while Paladins must sacrifice Offensive prowess and Healing power in order to gain Defensive/Tanking abilities from the Protection tree, Druids sacrifice only Healing power in order to make great gains in both Offensive prowess and Defensive/Tanking ability.

The reason?
Paladins generate threat from Holy damage with a high threat multiplier (Righteous Fury).
Druids generate threat from dealing lots of damage, including big crits, with a much smaller multiplier.

This means that Druids who spec Feral to tank also get the bonus of dealing lots of damage.

Additionally, while Paladins have to focus on Block, Dodge, Parry, and +defense because of their lower armor mitigation and hit points, Druids only have to focus on Dodge (for which they have a much better agility to Dodge ratio than either Paladins or Warriors) and Armor from items, which gets a LARGE multiplier in Dire Bear form.

Druid tanking itemization focuses much more on raw stats, and is therefore cheaper to itemize than Paladin tanking gear. Druids do not need int, spi, spelldamage, +defense, +block, +block value, and +parry in order to tank - they only need lots of AC and lots of +sta, +agi, and +str. Their armor can be more cheaply itemized, and therefore they will always scale better than Paladins unless something is done to either change the Druid tanking mechanic (more damage = more aggro) or a change to the Paladin tanking mechanic (more spelldamage = more holy damage = more threat from RF).

This is an upsetting problem. We are alreay hearing reports from the beta - from both Paladins and Warriors specced Protection - that Druids are having their cake (and eating it too!) in terms of both Tanking and Damage dealing.

Blizzard needs to deal with this immediately.

9:19 PM  
Anonymous Hogit said...

Hunters have tanked Nefarian.. so yeah a bear doing it is not groundbreaking.

The paladins tanking are only limited by their mana correct?

9:53 PM  
Blogger Brian said...

One thing I'll say about Bear tanks that is irritating. In most raids, they will among the leaders in damage while they are tanking.

Neither Paladins or Warriors can say that. Both classes have to give up damage for more armor (taking a 1-hander and shield rather than using a two-hander or dual wielding) for damage mitigation.

Then, the Druid aggro scales while the Warrior's does not and the Paladin does only through spell damage.

And while the Warrior only needs to worry about STA and Defense to tank, a Paladin needs a myriad to bonuses.

11:24 PM  
Anonymous snow said...

I was actually 4th in the damage meters for our last AQ raid, as a prot pally. How? Fearless AOE + Blessing of Sanctuary in the bug tunnel. Plus we chain pull the trash from skeram to sartura and just aoe them down. Further, AOE on Fankriss itself. The healer's mana is my fuel.

And as for feral druids out-tanking us? The mitigation difference is there, of course, but it's minor, and limited to physical attacks. I'm not sure why paladins are very doom and gloom about prot all of a sudden. It needs some further buffing, but we're miles and miles ahead of where we were.

12:55 AM  
Blogger Brian said...

I would agree that Paladins are much better off than before.

The problem is the druids. They are becoming the best tanks in the game; even better than a Warrior.

This is problematic.

2:29 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thanks for clearing up my mistake on the 5% Stamina boost Warriors get from talents....

However as they're base stamina is higher than ours then sadly 5% is probably better than 6% also given that they can probably itemize better for Sta the chances are they pull ahead again.

Don't get me wrong I've felt the improvement to our Tanking ability.

But I believe it still needs tweaking to make the most of what we have.

I'm guessing that the issue is balancing our already excellent AOE tanking abilities against our so so single Target mechanics. I haven't given up hope by any means I just don't think we're quite there yet.

9:43 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Bear aggro nerfed. Paladins are now the only tank who's aggro can scale.

Also, despite druids having higher hp and armor..they also get crits and crushing blows whereas paladins and warriors can mitigate with shield blocks.

11:34 AM  

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