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BluetrackerToo Legit To Quit
Anyone who's visited the US Pally forums knows of McHammar, the guy who popularized the Reckoning bomb. He quit playing and isn't expecting to re-subscribe until BC comes out (= can't post on the forums). Here's his thoughts on the recent debacle:
Hi there. It's me, Mchammar. I've been watching the Paladin forums again with great interest recently. It seems the new Burning Crusade has a lot in store for Paladins. And of course, since I'm Mchammar, I really mean PvP Paladins. But also maybe all paladins, for all I know.
My favorite, favorite thing about the expansion is/will be Crusader strike. I know it's not an original sentiment, but even with a 10 second cooldown I love this talent. Why? Because it's exactly what I wanted from back in the day. An instant attack for Paladins. I don't love it solely because it improves our DPS, but because, as a mostly PvP player, I love burst damage. And what more could a Paladin want? The 6-to-10 second nerf barely effects us in PvP, save in drawn-out duels. The real beauty of the skill is the way in which it actually augments a Retribution Paladin's ability to heal in PvP.
As of right now, almost all a Paladin's dps is autoattack. Crusader strike, even at 10s, helps this figure a lot. As far as burst damage is concerned, we can now break out a fierce combination of one melee attack + a JoC (at +15% increased crit rate, remember) + a CS, and possibly a SoC strike, all within less than a second thanks to unlinked cooldowns on Judgement and CS. Then, we have 8 or 10 seconds to choose between hitting an enemy once or twice, firing off a HoW, and/or healing a little bit, before releasing our next salvo. This combination, with the extremely believable BC character stats of 20% crit, 250 spell damage, 800 attack power, and 70 DPS on a 3.8 weapon, is capable of delivering almost 4000 burst damage, if everything crits. And that's without Vengeance, Avenging Wrath, Sanctity Aura, or even 2h mastery; with all these factors that number can increase to 6000 or more! On average, you'll be doing about 2500 damage to the enemy if you hit all 4. That ain't bad for a plate-wearing, bubble-popping, heal-tossing "tank" class like us.
A properly-played retribution Paladin will be a substantially stronger force on the battlefield, thanks to the improved Ret gear present in BC, and to CS. This is true even taken relative to other classes. Paladin gear, and it would seem hybrid gear in general, is being tuned more properly. It looks like Blizzard has finally figured out what Paladins do all day: Everything. Stamina, Spell Damage, Strength, Crit Rating, and Int make a good Retribution Paladin, and thanks to the new level cap and relative powers, it's finally possible for all of these to be doled out in adequate amounts, at once. Take a look at the Thottbot beta plate.
And now, to return to what most of you have probably come to expect from me, comes the part where I tell you to quit yer bitchin'. The recent nerfs to vengeance and CS reek of an attempt to reduce Retribution Paladins' raid (read: sustained) DPS, it's true, but who's to say that that's such a bad thing. I still think anyone who rolled a Paladin with the intention of being a damage-dealing machine when they had the option of being a mage, warlock, rogue or hunter (whose ONLY possible role is to be a dpser) has brain damage. In PvE, we're supposed to be a "tank-healer hybrid." I'm not prepared to analyze our tanking, but I think the combination of our new abilities with new gear, horde paladins (and therefore, encounters allowing for or even demanding Paladin tanks), and a shift towards more hectic raiding experiences will give us plenty to do. Also, unlike what some people have been saying, unless you have perfectly wrong timing, you still have 2 chances to hit a Crusader Strike in order to refresh a Judgement. Remember, Judgements are 20 seconds now. You can miss a CS 5 seconds into the jJudgement and still get another shot at 15.
I've said it before, and I'm just about to say it again: Paladins are, above all, a hybrid class. There are, of course, still plenty of people that know this, but there seem to be many who don't quite get it. In BC PvE, we'll hopefully be scrambling around protecting the wee squishies like I remember doing back when I was leveling my Paladin. In PvP, we'll be able to take hits, throw big fat heals around, and hit like a wrecking ball. And based on what I've seen of the new armor, we won't even be all bloody golden anymore.
Oh, by the way, remember when the only way to really outfit your Paladin beyond Soulforge was to be a rank 13 PvPer and/or raid Nefarian every week? Well, some of the blue stuff dropping in TBC is actually balanced towards Ret Paladins, and has stats comparable to current PvP armor. Speaking of PvP armor, that's been made easier for the average person to get, too. Finally, I can just play the game how I want (by PvPing), without having to do it for 16 hours a day, and get the gear without having to waste my life away feeling like a greasy asshole talking to my guildmates on Ventrilo. I can't wait.
posted by Mastgrr at 8:38:00 AM
31 Comments:
Fair enough as a PvP Paladin, my concerns are more to do with making every spec viable in both PvE and PvP. That said:
Also, unlike what some people have been saying, unless you have perfectly wrong timing, you still have 2 chances to hit a Crusader Strike in order to refresh a Judgement. Remember, Judgements are 20 seconds now. You can miss a CS 5 seconds into the Judgement and still get another shot at 15.
Simply, wrong. Say you get a CS hit, all judgements are then refreshed to a 20 sec duration, but CS is also on a 10sec cooldown. The earliest you can refresh the judgement durations again is when they have 10sec duration left. If you miss, CS is not avaliable again until the judgement duration hits 0sec, a further 10secs later.
On your first attempt to use CS to refresh judgements it works as outlined by McHammar. Every subsequent attempt at refreshing judgements gives you one chance only because the judgement duration co-incides with CS's cooldown.
Agree with Zebra stated.
Read an interesting quote in
"And lastly, it takes more than attractive buffs and raid debuffs to convince guilds running the bleeding edge content to let us get in the front and melee. Our DPS has to be high enough for a long period of time (read: 10-15 minutes boss fights) to justify bringing us over another rogue or mage. If 10 DPS classes + a Retribution Paladin can't beat 11 DPS classes' damage in long fights, all the hard work spent on retribution tree will be in vain."
Paladins have to be competative in DPS or Ret paladins wont have a place in raids come BC because the buffs is not enough, its as simple as that. For tanking i think it will be just a few paladins that will get get the gear but still be rather useless at tanking. So why use it then. And why even bother to exchange DKP for 1-2 bossfights in entire BC.
Paladins is now the "necessary evil" in pve but will become the "unnecessary evil" in BC. But i dont care ive rerolled and will quit by then.
Yeah, I was gonna say what zebra said... but he did :)
Good to hear from McHammar. I've prolly not been around as long as some, but the guy has reached legendary status. Props to him for that!
McHammer reminds me of the healadins when he gets on his high horse saying he's happy with things and asking everyone else to shut up. If he thinks PvP is fine then he has every right to say it but he needs to think again about PvE.
One retribution paladin in a raid - that is all people are asking to be viable. These people aren't expected to beat 10 DPS classes - they are looking to finish towards the bottom of the DPS-only classes, but supply buffs, back up healing, refreshing judgments etc. to compensate.
Blizzard need to realise that CS at 10 seconds is broken. They added in the ability for a retri paladin to refresh all judgements on a target, removed lasting judgement, then nerfed CS enough that it could not keep refresh judgements with enough consistency.
Lower the damage output, or whatever, just lower the cooldown to at least 9 seconds.
As for vengeance - if it ain't broken don't fix it - and seeing how this talent has been there for 2 years Blizzard need to realise that it must be other talents/spells that are broken and not vengeance (I've heard SoB).
As it stands, for PvE, Holy again seems the only way to go - why should I give up on some excellent healing talents for little to no extra DPS? Why should I give up on thinks like Holy Shock for the non-existent tanking talents in Prot?
How about rather than lowering the cooldown of CS, it ups the duration of the judgements to 35 secs? Net result is no DPS increase, three needed bites at the cherry beyond the first refresh(I think two is not enough) and greater leeway if the Ret paladin is performing other duties.
I'm still not sure whether this would allow Ret paladins to generate enough DPS (directly through own damage and indirectly through Sanc. Crus.) to warrant being in the front lines but it removes the glaring current weakness of CS for PvE.
Through most of my forum trawling, I've mostly agreed with Mchammar's PoVs - even if I never really had the temperament to be a reck-bomber.
The CS cooldown's extension has much more effect on PVE, both the above mentioned judgement refreshment and grinding speed (though the downtime vs killing time ratio may or may not have required slowing down our use of CS anyway).
I think with the shorter cooldown, repentances 6 second daze could have effectively let you stack up back to back JoC & CS's on a single target. Though, I'm not certain if the extended cooldown changes that.
Also, in PvP, I think Mchammar is underestimating the natural tendency of 1 v 1 paladin fights to drag out to quite a bit longer than 10 seconds.
Riddle me this...
I'm a Paladin Who thinks Avenging Wrath should be nerfed....
Why you ask ?
Sure it's not overly powerful on a Paladin... but imagine If a mage steals it ?
This whole balancing thing is way off kilter.
Balancing Paladin's on the basis of Gear that 99.9% of use will never see is a travesty.
If CS (6 sec) is overpowered on a lvl60 in Blues then fine nerf it.
But otherwise leave it..
The ability to refresh all Judgements on a sustained basis was a real selling point for bringing Ret Paladins to a raid.
I'd expect to be destroyed by anyone specced for damage with the very best gear available.
It happens to me all the time already in PVP.
Where is the balance in that ?
Anyone who's visited the US Pally forums knows of McHammar, the guy who popularized the Reckoning bomb
Uhh, no he's not. Jamaz was. McHammer is the guy who made the video and FAQ AFTER Jamaz had his popular reckoning video out, but acted like a shameless self promoter and lived on the forums so he got recognized. The fact is McHammer will do anything on the paladin forums for attention and e-fame, I think he realized how sick he was and finally quit at some point.
The 6-to-10 second nerf barely effects us in PvP, save in drawn-out duels.
Anyone who logically looks at the skill and has any sense can see that a 40% reduction in DPS is quite a bit, which is what a 6 second to 10 second nerf is. Also, if you think only duels last 10 seconds, you haven't been spending much time in AB or WSG.
The real beauty of the skill is the way in which it actually augments a Retribution Paladin's ability to heal in PvP.
This is pretty much a joke. PvP typically breaks down to "lines" if there are more than two people on either side. If you are on the front line and stop to throw a holy light, you will eat a kick, counter spell, silence, curse of tongues, etc. Do you really think you are going to walk up to a mage, hit CS, then stop to heal the warrior to the left of you, and the mage won't hit you with a counter spell? Do you really think you will walk up to a rogue, hit them, then try to throw a heal and not get kicked/gouged? This applies to pretty much every class, if they aren't retarded and they see you throwing around holy light, you will be stopped. You might be able to throw around flash of light from the front lines, but FoL doesn't HPS enough to keep up with PvP DPS most of the time, unless you've got the best of raiding gear.
As far as burst damage is concerned, we can now break out a fierce combination of one melee attack + a JoC (at +15% increased crit rate, remember) + a CS, and possibly a SoC strike.......On average, you'll be doing about 2500 damage to the enemy if you hit all 4.
I suggest paladins compare this to what you have now. If you swing melee and it procs SoC, and then you JoC, does this seem like "OMG HIGH DAMAGE?" The only thing you are throwing in with CS is another melee strike. Using todays numbers, you can expect about 100 damage out of JoC, 500 from a melee swing, and around 300 from a SoC proc. So yeah, throw in a another 500 from CS, and you end up with a grand total of 1400. This is without considering mitigation, and estimating 900 attack power without vengeance or sanctity aura. Even if you throw those in, it won't be much more impressive without crits.
That ain't bad for a plate-wearing, bubble-popping, heal-tossing "tank" class like us.
Great, you've sunk to using forum troll lines. Why don't you just run around saying lern2play to everyone you disagree with? Oh wait, that is basically what you are doing.
A properly-played retribution Paladin will be a substantially stronger force on the battlefield, thanks to the improved Ret gear present in BC, and to CS......Everything. Stamina, Spell Damage, Strength, Crit Rating, and Int make a good Retribution Paladin,
I've looked at thottbot/beta which is obvious from my previous posts. Other than the arena gear (which is no doubt what you are looking at) most of them are MISSING melee crit, which is retarded considering how much ret is based on melee crits. I do agree that itemization is getting better, but the majority of paladin gear is missing one of those things you listed.
Perhaps sockets will be the answer, but it really doesn't change the point that it seems you are basing your assumptions on level 70 epic arena gear, and not the majority of green and blue drops that most people will have.
and thanks to the new level cap and relative powers, it's finally possible for all of these to be doled out in adequate amounts, at once. Take a look at the Thottbot beta plate.
Yeah, I have in-depth actually. No, it's not perfect, and yes +melee crit is missing from a lot of items. Once again, you are saying things to back up your point that simply aren't true. Look at this list of plate armor from thottbot/beta that has int. Once you get past the PvP/Arena rewards, how much of it has melee crit? Not very much at all. Retribution paladins aren't getting the itemization you say they are.
Why don't you just simply say "HA HA HA RETNOOBS" instead of making things up, since that is the point of the majority of your posts?
And now, to return to what most of you have probably come to expect from me, comes the part where I tell you to quit yer bitchin'.
And here comes the point where I tell you that you aren't special. Your opinions are no better than anyone elses, and surely ripping off Jamaz and being a shameless self promoter doesn't make you into some kind of authority on paladins, other than to those who enjoy your fanboi rants or were not around the forums long enough to know how you came about.
You ran around the WoW forums basically trolling people like this for a long time, hiding behind the mods when someone disagreed with you a bit too loudly. I'm happy that I can tell you here to go fuck yourself, the last thing the paladin community needs is another person who simplifies any criticism of the class into "You just don't know how to play".
The recent nerfs to vengeance and CS reek of an attempt to reduce Retribution Paladins' raid (read: sustained) DPS, it's true, but who's to say that that's such a bad thing.
Who are you to say it's a good thing?
I still think anyone who rolled a Paladin with the intention of being a damage-dealing machine when they had the option of being a mage, warlock, rogue or hunter (whose ONLY possible role is to be a dpser) has brain damage.
Nice flame. So what you are trying to say here is "Anyone who doesn't agree with me that these nerfs aren't bad must have rolled the class for a damage dealing machine and they are brain dead!".
I doubt anyone rolled this class expecting the damage of a cloth class. Comments like the one you made serve no purpose. Paladins don't want damage like a rogue, but I'm sure they would like a more active combat system.
In PvP, we'll be able to take hits,
From melee classes.
throw big fat heals around,
From the back of the group.
and hit like a wrecking ball.
That is funny. Obviously you haven't talked to any beta testers (I've got an ex guildy who is beta testing with a pally) or read the beta testing boards before crusader strike. Paladins at level 67 couldn't keep up at all with the damage the other classes were doing, and the new stamina devaluation made the DPS divide even worse. Do you really think one extra weapon damage attack will make that much of a difference?
And based on what I've seen of the new armor, we won't even be all bloody golden anymore.
Yes, we have some nice new armor with pink gems! I'm hopeful the arena armor will look better.
Could it be true?! We've made a difference?!
Read the last few posts:
http://beta.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=800096&pageNo=2&sid=1#35
Could it be true?! We've made a difference?!
If we did, I'm thinking a larger than normal number of cancellations caused it.
It's hard for me to see paladin raid DPS as an issue. The number of paladins that will be allowed to melee in raids will be small. As a guild, if you have a choice between a hybrid DPS'ing and a healer, you will take the healer, because there are always fewer healers.
I'm expecting some type of other nerf in the place of this one, hopefully it will be a reworking of fanatcism rather than a vengence nerf, and maybe a higher mana cost for CS rather than a longer cool down.
My personal hope is that they change a different facet of balance, allowing us to keep our new damage-dealing abilities at the cost of some more survivability. I want viable options - even if it means stark tradeoffs.
My personal suggestion - have Crusader Strike share its cooldown with both of our heals, as well as Divine Shield. You can pump out the damage, but getting that extra punch in will mean you can't heal yourself with HL or FoL or bubble for 6 seconds after using CS.
I want viable options - even if it means stark tradeoffs.
Paladins keep telling Blizzarrd this, but they don't seem to want to go in that direction. Who knows what the future will hold with this class however, it wasn't long ago that we were told we would 'never get a strike'
have Crusader Strike share its cooldown with both of our heals, as well as Divine Shield. You can pump out the damage, but getting that extra punch in will mean you can't heal yourself with HL or FoL or bubble for 6 seconds after using CS
That would be totally reasonable.
Guys, honestly, I agree with mchammar here. Pre-nerf, imagine the stun chains you could perform in a duel. Run up, CS, Stun, Judge, CS Again, wait for an autoattack, cancel their spell with repentence, judge again, cs again... and then they could do something about it, if still alive. All that with SoC procs and Vengeance and eventually Avenging Wrath. It just seemed a little too powerful. Now I don't see why they had to nerf vengeance, but if our PVE damage was becoming a threat, isn't that a good sign? A ret paladin should still be 10th-15th dps in a 25 man raid, WHILE being a healer, a cleanser, a buffer, and adding 3% crit to every dps there, and 6% healing to the MT is something no sane raid leader would pass up.
You will never be just dps, and that's the problem. You can now do downright good dps now, if you spec for it.
Would any other class consider it "Downright good DPS" if we gave it to them ?
K thought not... next...
Re-read my post, please. It's downright good DPS considering everything else we bring to the table. If you want a pure DPS class, try a rogue. They bring nothing to the table but pure numbers. So I guess by your estimation, the best raid would be 40 rogues, right?
"Guys, honestly, I agree with mchammar here. Pre-nerf, imagine the stun chains you could perform in a duel."
PvP is not balanced for 1-vs-1.
God, how long I've yearned to say that.
P.S. I just got in beta!
Anyone who logically looks at the skill and has any sense can see that a 40% reduction in DPS is quite a bit, which is what a 6 second to 10 second nerf is. Also, if you think only duels last 10 seconds, you haven't been spending much time in AB or WSG.
The real beauty of the skill is the way in which it actually augments a Retribution Paladin's ability to heal in PvP.
This is pretty much a joke. PvP typically breaks down to "lines" if there are more than two people on either side. If you are on the front line and stop to throw a holy light, you will eat a kick, counter spell, silence, curse of tongues, etc. Do you really think you are going to walk up to a mage, hit CS, then stop to heal the warrior to the left of you, and the mage won't hit you with a counter spell? Do you really think you will walk up to a rogue, hit them, then try to throw a heal and not get kicked/gouged? This applies to pretty much every class, if they aren't retarded and they see you throwing around holy light, you will be stopped. You might be able to throw around flash of light from the front lines, but FoL doesn't HPS enough to keep up with PvP DPS most of the time, unless you've got the best of raiding gear.
Again, PvP is about burst damage, and that's even more true in more-or-less organized line battles when your target might get healed.
Besides, PvP in AV may break down into lines, but for the other's it's generally skirmishes where everyone is everywhere. And even when you can't heal, you can still pick a convenient person to stun, or even just continue attacking.
There are a million ways to not eat a counterspell/kick/ES. Stun/Repent and just observing who is likely to stop you are the easiest. If you just took a fireball, the mage is probably paying attention to you. Otherwise, you might be able to get off a heal.
I suggest paladins compare this to what you have now. If you swing melee and it procs SoC, and then you JoC, does this seem like "OMG HIGH DAMAGE?" The only thing you are throwing in with CS is another melee strike. Using todays numbers, you can expect about 100 damage out of JoC, 500 from a melee swing, and around 300 from a SoC proc. So yeah, throw in a another 500 from CS, and you end up with a grand total of 1400. This is without considering mitigation, and estimating 900 attack power without vengeance or sanctity aura. Even if you throw those in, it won't be much more impressive without crits.
That's a pretty weak number for JoC. Try 250, more on a Paladin with some spell damage. The 2500 figure is the weighted average of the crit and non-crit scenarios, e.g. the mean damage you will do. Most of the time you'll do slightly less because you didn't crit, and some of the time you'll do substantially more because you did.
Although I did forget to mention that I also assumed JotC was on the target. Sorry about that.
Great, you've sunk to using forum troll lines. Why don't you just run around saying lern2play to everyone you disagree with? Oh wait, that is basically what you are doing.
I say it because it's true. Paladins have a lot of things in their favor. If every class in the game had identical damage capability, it's pretty obvious that Paladins would be winning against a lot more classes than they would be losing to, and contributing more to groups than other classes. Paladins having less damage is a point of balance for the class. This is fundamental. I can't really fathom how you can disagree with this statement if you have class balance in mind.
I've looked at thottbot/beta which is obvious from my previous posts. Other than the arena gear (which is no doubt what you are looking at) most of them are MISSING melee crit, which is retarded considering how much ret is based on melee crits. I do agree that itemization is getting better, but the majority of paladin gear is missing one of those things you listed.
Perhaps sockets will be the answer, but it really doesn't change the point that it seems you are basing your assumptions on level 70 epic arena gear, and not the majority of green and blue drops that most people will have.
and thanks to the new level cap and relative powers, it's finally possible for all of these to be doled out in adequate amounts, at once. Take a look at the Thottbot beta plate.
Yeah, I have in-depth actually. No, it's not perfect, and yes +melee crit is missing from a lot of items. Once again, you are saying things to back up your point that simply aren't true. Look at this list of plate armor from thottbot/beta that has int. Once you get past the PvP/Arena rewards, how much of it has melee crit? Not very much at all. Retribution paladins aren't getting the itemization you say they are.
Alright, I'll concede that crit is lacking on that gear. Sockets will certainly help this situation though; Yellow sockets can give 8-10 crit rating, and other sockets can hold hybrid yellows with half that. It must be admitted that beyond that overlook, other stats on the gear still make it very strong.
The recent nerfs to vengeance and CS reek of an attempt to reduce Retribution Paladins' raid (read: sustained) DPS, it's true, but who's to say that that's such a bad thing.
Who are you to say it's a good thing?
I'm fucking Mchammar bitch. But even so, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying, from a gameplay perspective, Paladins in raids will never do the same or similar DPS to a dedicated class. In raids, Paladins should be doing some damage, but they should also be healing, and come BC probably tanking some too.
When I was a raider I was in incorrigible retnoob. I spent the most time meleeing out of any Paladin in my guild. But I still stopped when healing was required. What Retribution Paladins should be doing is a decent amount of damage, while still being able to fill in other gaps in the raid when it comes time to.
Nice flame. So what you are trying to say here is "Anyone who doesn't agree with me that these nerfs aren't bad must have rolled the class for a damage dealing machine and they are brain dead!".
No, that's just what you're hearing because you don't like me. I said what I meant, and I meant what I said (facetiousness notwithstanding). The point is that Paladins can't be expecting to do the DPS of a DPS class. And, from what I've read, with the 6 second CS they were pretty close, if not quite there. It's a matter of degrees when it comes to deciding how much less they should have, but I think that comes down to what can they contribute in place of that lost DPS. Extra healing to their group using sanctity aura? 3% better chance to crit on whatever mob they've judged? (Remember, crit rates are going to drop a bit, at least at first). Spot heals? Self-heals? Cleanse? Blessings? Requiring less maintenance than any other melee DPSer? Ret Paladins certainly bring something to the table in raids.
I doubt anyone rolled this class expecting the damage of a cloth class. Comments like the one you made serve no purpose. Paladins don't want damage like a rogue, but I'm sure they would like a more active combat system.
I doubt it too. But is this really about a more active combat system? And if so, is pressing a button 40% less really such a blow to interactivity? If crusader strike did 1 sixth the damage and had a one-second cooldown, would you prefer that? You dislike the nerf because it nerfed damage, not interactiveness. From most accounts I've read, people are really enjoying CS, even after the nerf.
That is funny. Obviously you haven't talked to any beta testers (I've got an ex guildy who is beta testing with a pally) or read the beta testing boards before crusader strike. Paladins at level 67 couldn't keep up at all with the damage the other classes were doing, and the new stamina devaluation made the DPS divide even worse. Do you really think one extra weapon damage attack will make that much of a difference?
It makes a lot of difference to burst damage. Enough to generate a few whine posts here and there. And as far as sustained DPS, it's hard to say. But if it doesn't make that much difference, then how much does that 40% DPS reduction to it matter?
It's probably too soon to say what's right. At the very minimum complaining should be reserved for those who have firsthand experience, or otherwise delayed until the thing goes live.
The increase to Paladin DPS is a combination of new talents, new gear, more open groups, and Crusader Strike.
I'm hopeful the arena armor will look better.
Our PvP gear so far has looked pretty sweet. I'm hopeful. The tier 4 armor is actually really nice, except for the gems. I'm a bit jealous of the Blood Elves' Black and Red Lawbringer armor though.
But in conclusion, I will actually relent a bit. I think Crusader Strike's cooldown should be brought down some, maybe to 8 seconds, in order to coincide with the Judgement cooldown and to make it better at refreshing judgements, which, as was pointed out before, I was wrong about. I was tired, leave me alone.
Anyhow, that's it from me. Also, I think that suggestion where CS delays the bubble would be murder in PvP.
"PvP is not balanced for 1-vs-1."
Actually, in BC it's balanced for 2-vs-2.
"Actually, in BC it's balanced for 2-vs-2."
Actually, it's not; they've said as much, and accepted that's the way it will be. That's why certain combos of classes will pwn the rest. Blizzard PvP is balanced around groups.
McHammer, you PvP. You don't PvE and haven't been in the game for a long time. Don't presume to know better what is better for PvE raiding, over those of us who have been, and who have been in the Beta.
You're not playing with all the information, and thus your viewpoint is narrow at best.
Please keep it at a civil level.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Bleh, I didn't really want to come on here with a complaining-about-complaining post. The point of my original was mostly just to convey that I was excited about the new changes coming to Paladins, and I thought that even with the nerfs the patch will make the Paladin more viable in a greater variety of roles. I was specifically trying to highlight the increased viability in PvP, but I guess I got sidetracked.
As far as my commentary on raids goes, "They are not wanted for their own abilities as DPSers, but mostly because they are providing a benefit to the rest of the raid." was pretty much my entire argument and position on Retribution Paladins. I would postulate that most of the reason that Retribution Paladins will still be a presence in raids is because they can still tank and heal just fine. Paladin specs, as always, still tend towards being a way to enhance what the player wants to do and how they want to play, as opposed to defining what they're able to do. I happen to think that's a good thing.
As an aside, when I say "I'm Mchammar, bitch," there's an extremely high probability that I'm joking. I'm a bit of an asshole, but not that much of one. Also, whenever I say something, please keep in mind that it is implicitly my opinion, and not what I think everyone does or should believe.
McHammar is nowhere near the asshole that Benediction is. I'm glad he's excited about the expansion, nerfs included. Personally, I'm hoping there's some truth to the whole thing about the nerfs not going ahead in the Beta, and that Blizzard will look at alternatives to destroying a solid talent that's been a cornerstone of the Retribution tree for nearly 2 years.
Let's just be Crystal clear here for once & for all. Every single class can spec for damage in WOW every one.
We should be able to as well.
Fine you should sacrifice something in exchange.
But the bottom line is there is a additional gap between our healing & other classes DPS the only logical outcome is either to increase our DPS or modify our healing & I can tell you for one I'm already doing enough healing.
We should give up something?
Guess what I give up for speccing 41 in Ret...Just 41 mind you...I could very easily see myself spending upwards of 48 points in the Ret tree...
I lose the guaranteed crit heal every 2 minutes from Divine Favor, I lose the 6% increased chance to crit with holy light, the 5% increased chance to crit with spells period, holy shock, the 35% of our intellect being spell damage/healing, the 50% cost reduction for 10 seconds every 3 minutes. the .5 second reduction in holy lights cast time after casting holy light. The curse and disease resistance, the 10% chance that any attack will deal half damage to me.
I lose Reckoning, holy shield, improved divine shield, improved resistance auras, ardent defender, avenger's shield, and any other number of talents.
So for 41 points in ret, I give up the chance for alot. Then again, so does every other class in the game. A mage specs 41 into fire hes not going to be able to go as far down his frost or arcane tree as he'd like. A warrior goes down his protection tree, hes limited in what he can get from arms or fury. Thats the trade off...and its the trade off every other class in the game has to a certain extent. Paladins are built durable naturally, when we spec ret, its specifically to meet the lack of certain aspects of our class. The warrior is a good tank even without talents, but its those talents he chooses that will determine if hes a tank for raiding, or an offtank or DPSer. Its the different specs that make our characters, not the base class itself. A survivalist hunter plays differently than an archery hunter plays differently than a beast master. A fire mage plays differently than a frost mage plays differently than an arcane spec. Shadow priests and Holy Priests are worlds of difference. Fury warriors and Arms warriors are different and they're BOTH DPS specs.
Every class gives up to choose what spec they go with. To believe that paladins are somehow magically excluded from that is idiocy. To believe we should pay more because of what we are is even worse.
I posted the above.. above & yep I don't disagree with what u r saying
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Mchammar and Lord Vir I enjoyed your posts. Thanks for bringing a little more insight into the dynamics of pvp with CS.
So is it official that they rolled back the nerf?
Again, PvP is about burst damage, and that's even more true in more-or-less organized line battles when your target might get healed.
I agree, but I'd add in that it's about controlled burst damage, and burst healing. Which is why flash of light isn't very good in pvp with quite a bit of +healing gear.
Have you ever played a rogue? I can tell you that controlling burst damage, and when it happens is extremely important in pvp, which is why evicerate is much more important than ambush because when the other guy is low on life, you must kill him before he gets support.
This is a problem that CS solves, that the paladin actually has something on a short cooldown ready for when they actually wear a victim down. This is also one of the shortcomings of our seal based combat system.
Besides, PvP in AV may break down into lines, but for the other's it's generally skirmishes where everyone is everywhere.
Really? Consider AB for a minute. If you run up to take the lumber mill with a group of 4, and meet 5 horde up there, do the priests not stand in the back, while the warriors rush forward into the enemies ranks?
Don't the casters attempt to stay back as far as possible near the healers while still being able to hit other people?
Sure, as a battle wears on, the lines become a bit broken, as melee classes come into the back lines, but casters will always try to stay in the back, which means as a paladin if you stay back you will likely be able to avoid counterspells, curse of tounges, silence, etc.
Now, it's up to the people you are supporting to make sure a cloth class doesn't get close enough to you to do that, but the idea that a paladin can support just as well from the front line as the back ignores the concept of range in pvp.
As the paladin stands now, if you are going to do anything more than throw out the occasional heal or two in serious pvp, you are better off standing in the back.
Typically the DPS you offer if you are playing support isn't worth the risk to your group of being in front. I find that if I'm playing support I wear gear that doesn't make me much of a melee threat.
Now when I throw on my crit gear, I do still throw an occasional heal/BoF/BoP out. I don't offer nearly the support I can by staying in back and wearing gear meant for healing/casting however. I don't see that changing in TBC, but I do see the possibility that standing on the front lines might be something I'm actually encouraged to do, which would be nice.
And even when you can't heal, you can still pick a convenient person to stun,
If you eat silence, counterspell, etc you aren't stunning anyone either.
or even just continue attacking.
That is basically it.
There are a million ways to not eat a counterspell/kick/ES. Stun/Repent and just observing who is likely to stop you are the easiest.
So you just blew a long cooldown to get one heal off. Now don't get me wrong, I do this, but in no way is repetence/hoj a decent counter to ES/kick, etc because of the long cooldowns. The best way to avoid eating that kinda stuff is to stand out of range if you want to support your group.
If you just took a fireball, the mage is probably paying attention to you. Otherwise, you might be able to get off a heal.
I've had about a zillion mages CS me without doing anything else first. The only time I get the typical opening is if it's 1v1 or 2v2 situation. Otherwise if I stop to heal on the front lines, and the mage wants to throw out CS I will either have to stop my heal leading to whoever I'm supporting to die, or eat CS which leads to whover I'm supporting dying. Kind of a theme.
That's a pretty weak number for JoC. Try 250, more on a Paladin with some spell damage.
Assuming +250 spell damage (with JoC) you are looking at like 300 damage.
The 2500 figure is the weighted average of the crit and non-crit scenarios, e.g. the mean damage you will do. Most of the time you'll do slightly less because you didn't crit, and some of the time you'll do substantially more because you did.
I still think your number is high. Adding CS in today is very easy, just imagine getting one more attack after a SoC proc, and judging command, and assume one crits.
Does anyone thing that is WTFPWN damage after mitigation?
Although I did forget to mention that I also assumed JotC was on the target. Sorry about that.
Yeah I didn't consider JoTC either, I typically JoTC on whatever I'm attacking, but of course PvP is dynamic so sometimes you don't want to blow the mana on SoTC, JoTC and put up with the 8-10 second cooldown for your next judgement.
I say it because it's true. Paladins have a lot of things in their favor. If every class in the game had identical damage capability, it's pretty obvious that Paladins would be winning against a lot more classes than they would be losing to,
Once again, you fail to consider that some paladins might want more control over their damage, or a slight DPS upgrade for them wanting to do damage like rogues.
It's simply a way to avoid meaningful discussion by portraying anyone who disagrees with your point of view as unreasonable/idiotic. You shouldn't do such things.
and contributing more to groups than other classes.
I consider PvP more than PvE, but even if paladins did better damage in pve, they would most likely end up healing because healers are hard to come by.
To make an extreme example, consider this. If warlocks could heal, and had a healing spec do you think groups would ask them to heal or DPS? The statement Caydiem made a long time ago "If you have a healing spell, guilds will want you to heal" is true.
So what I conclude from this is, even if a ret paladin could dps, they would be asked (and expected) to heal.
Paladins having less damage is a point of balance for the class.
You say 'less damage', but less damage than what? Less damage than a Rogue, Mage, etc, of course? Damage on par with a hunters pet? That is obviously not right.
This is fundamental. I can't really fathom how you can disagree with this statement if you have class balance in mind.
This doesn't mean a paladin shouldn't be able to do reasonable damage, or have controllable attacks if they spec for it.
Alright, I'll concede that crit is lacking on that gear. Sockets will certainly help this situation though; Yellow sockets can give 8-10 crit rating, and other sockets can hold hybrid yellows with half that. It must be admitted that beyond that overlook, other stats on the gear still make it very strong.
Yeah they are, but pvp is about burst damage, and unfortuantly melee crit is our best route, unless we can get a crapload of +spell damage. I don't think we will be 'gearing' our way to better DPS, but paladin itemization has gotten better with every patch.
I'm fucking Mchammar bitch.
Grats on your video and sticky, but that doesn't make you any better (or worse) than me.
But even so, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying, from a gameplay perspective, Paladins in raids will never do the same or similar DPS to a dedicated class.
That is fine. I never said paladins should be a main DPS class. What I'm saying, and have said is that tradeoffs should be available to the paladin to spec retribution, have a reasonable combat system, and be competitive in pvp.
In raids, Paladins should be doing some damage, but they should also be healing, and come BC probably tanking some too.
I think they will still be healing quite a bit, tanking maybe. DPS'ing? Only when they really outgear everyone else.
When I was a raider I was in incorrigible retnoob. I spent the most time meleeing out of any Paladin in my guild. But I still stopped when healing was required. What Retribution Paladins should be doing is a decent amount of damage, while still being able to fill in other gaps in the raid when it comes time to.
In small raids this will work out, but I'm betting in the 25 man instances paladins end up healing, buffing and/or tanking much like the 40 mans.
No, that's just what you're hearing because you don't like me. I said what I meant, and I meant what I said (facetiousness notwithstanding). The point is that Paladins can't be expecting to do the DPS of a DPS class.
You keep repeating this, and I keep telling you that isn't what paladins expect.
And, from what I've read, with the 6 second CS they were pretty close, if not quite there.
Really, where did you read this? I read the beta forums, and as I mentioned before I talk to someone who plays paladin in beta, and they never said we could do DPS close to a DPS class (ie rogue). They did mention that it made things much better, since the damage was controlled, and the fights had a better flow to them since there was something to do more than waiting for the next auto-attack.
It's a matter of degrees when it comes to deciding how much less they should have, but I think that comes down to what can they contribute in place of that lost DPS. Extra healing to their group using sanctity aura?
A decent talent, but I'm expecting a lot of holy paladins will spec into it.
3% better chance to crit on whatever mob they've judged? (Remember, crit rates are going to drop a bit, at least at first).
That is pretty decent, but we are going to have to deal with the other side having cleanse now. Ever duel another paladin and try to keep a judgement on them?
Spot heals? Self-heals? Cleanse? Blessings?
The loss of decursive is bad, the short term blessings are of course very powerful and unique (BoP, BoS, BoF). I'm talking about in PvP of course. Spot healing is kinda meh in pvp, having dedicated healers is much better.
Requiring less maintenance than any other melee DPSer?
I'd say warriors require less maintenance since they carry more HP usually. Of course, if you expect the paladin to take care of themselves they are less maintenance.
Ret Paladins certainly bring something to the table in raids.
I don't think ret paladins will be desired over holy paladins for large raids. We will see.
Paladins don't want damage like a rogue, but I'm sure they would like a more active combat system.
I doubt it too. But is this really about a more active combat system?
Yes.
And if so, is pressing a button 40% less really such a blow to interactivity?
Yes, especially for paladins. I don't think you realize how big of a number 40% of anything is. :)
If crusader strike did 1 sixth the damage and had a one-second cooldown, would you prefer that?
Of course not, since I'd be playing track and field with the buttons.
You dislike the nerf because it nerfed damage, not interactiveness.
I've told you a few times this wasn't the reason, yet you insist on telling me why I want something even when I'm telling you otherwise.
Listen, I don't care about DPS as much as controlled burst damage in PvP. Maybe I can explain in this way...
If blizzard got rid of seal of command, and gave us in it's place a strike that did 70% holy damage and put it on a 12 second timer (basically 5 PPM), that would be a DPS nerf from seal of command. Somehow magically thow out the concept of casting another seal with that.
I would gladly take that over seal of command for pvp purposes. Why? Because as I've stated before, controlled burst damage is what PvP is about. Hell if you put that with crusader strike on a 6 second cooldown, you have a combat system superior to what the paladin will have at release.
It (CS) makes a lot of difference to burst damage. Enough to generate a few whine posts here and there. And as far as sustained DPS, it's hard to say. But if it doesn't make that much difference, then how much does that 40% DPS reduction to it matter?
It's probably too soon to say what's right. At the very minimum complaining should be reserved for those who have firsthand experience, or otherwise delayed until the thing goes live.
That would include you, since you are complaining about the complaining, right?
The increase to Paladin DPS is a combination of new talents, new gear, more open groups, and Crusader Strike.
Our PvP gear so far has looked pretty sweet. I'm hopeful. The tier 4 armor is actually really nice, except for the gems. I'm a bit jealous of the Blood Elves' Black and Red Lawbringer armor though.
Yeah the BE's get some nice looking stuff, but their replacement for Vergians fist sucks. :D
But in conclusion, I will actually relent a bit. I think Crusader Strike's cooldown should be brought down some, maybe to 8 seconds, in order to coincide with the Judgement cooldown and to make it better at refreshing judgements, which, as was pointed out before, I was wrong about. I was tired, leave me alone.
I think if they were having problems at 70 with paladins DPS releated to vengence, they should look into the fanatcism talent. It was originally slated to be 10% to crit SoC and JoC. They changed it to 15% to crit JoC, but I doubt they realized how easy it would be to keep perma-vengence up with that. Add in Avenging Wrath (Blizz mentioned they are testing level 70 instances internally) and you have quite a bit of added damage.
Assuming the numbers are 30% Avenging wrath, a 15% Vengence, and 10% from sanctity aura, it's easy to see how the sustained DPS could be very high. I think the way to fix that is to change fanacism, not to take +crit from our gear, or nerf crusader strike. This is probably my pvp bias showing, I just think crusader strike will be a better pvp talent than Avenging Wrath. Sure AW looks awesome, but those wings are going to be a big sign to other classes that says "CC the paladin now!"
Anyhow, that's it from me. Also, I think that suggestion where CS delays the bubble would be murder in PvP.
It would be tough, but I'd prefer that to a 10 second CD on crusader strike instead of 6.
<3 Enbee.
I never really got the chance to bump into McHammer, (drop by #eu-paladin quakenet perhaps) but I do ring to some of the comments he made here, I concur that the only realistic thing that matters in PvP is burst, (in terms of damage :P) and that the Venge/CS nerfs are primarily targeted at Raid PvE DPS.
I made a post on the EU forums, some people agree, others don't, I unfortunately don't have access to the beta, so I am merely going on feedback from talents/spells items available on thott/etc and general commentary of testers I know.
God knows where the line lies but I completely agree with the benediction comments :P
Marshal QuantumDelta 60, EU-Outland.
A brilliant article - I love it.
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