25 October, 2006

Cheech and Chong Needs More Work

If you haven't read my opinion on the Ret changes, please check it here. If you have any thoughts about what I said, please comment about it. I know that my stance is probably not the most popular one to take.

Orcpaladin nails it why Protection still is junk. He makes points that we Pallies, who are supposed to be the #2 or #3 tanking class in the game (healer/tank primary) still lack two basics (I'm discarding the third one, gear - mainly because I haven't seen BC itemization yet):

- We don't have a single talent that increases our stamina while Druids, Priests, Warriors, Rogue, Warlock have one. Oh! And Hunters have two.
- We also have zero passive damage reduction (outside Improved Resistance Auras) whereas Hunters, Mages, Priests, Rogues, Warlocks have it. And of course Warriors have Defensive Stance and Improved Defensive Stance.

Higgen on the other hand proposes an awesome change to Holy: make the 41st talent simply give a passive +100% critical strike bonus for for Holy spells (not to be confused with giving us a 100% critical rating).

He lays out the reasons for this very effectively: it would enhance the entire tree, all the way from Judgement of Righteousness to Holy Light and Holy Shock. Maybe Blizzard could slap in two 41st talents in to the tree for fun.

31 Comments:

Anonymous Lindisfarne said...

So that practically means that, at long last, all three trees are more or less useless again:

- Ret is a very bad joke.
- Prot is a bad joke.
- Holy is a joke.

Again, Holy/Prot will be better DPS than Ret, again, Prot is lacking what is important, again, Healing is the most attractive tree.
Not because Holy is particulary good, mind you, but because the other two trees are designed horribly.

And what more, it seems to be intentional. I mean, the talents were there, in Holy and in Ret and even Prot looked more attractive than now.

And then came the nerfs.

Same procedure as every year.

Come on guys, the class is dead. Blizz knows this - they would be retarded if they didn't get it by now.

11:12 AM  
Blogger Lord Vir said...

Holy will be the best tree for pvp once again. Blessed life and lights grace are better for being a pvp healer than anything in ret is for doing damage, along with the 8% to crit holy light, and holy guidance.

Divine illumination is ok, but once again, the nerf bat swung too hard, it probably should have been knocked down to 15 seconds. Still it's a decent pve talent, and it will be nice to hit before trying to burst some damage in pvp via mana dumps.

Really, crusader strike was the saving grace for ret, so nerfing it to nearly half the damage output it was before is pretty bad.

Prot looks like crap. With a 30 second cooldown, and the low dps/pvp viability of the tree, that talent should be insta-cast. A stamina buff as you stated would be nice. Sure, you can get that from BoK, then in pvp you lose out on whatever blessing you would normally use, and end up getting it purged and lose like 400 health. Nice.

Holy shield could be much better, iDS could prevent mass dispell, improved resistance aurs could be better, anything to further protect the paladin from casters should be in there, etc, etc.

1:56 PM  
Anonymous Arganoth said...

It really depends on if certain other changes go in with this one, or what changes are to come.

If CS's cooldown is increasing so that other seals can proc with it (Like Command, Blood, and Righteousness) then id say we got the better end of that nerfing. Using a 3.8 speed weapon you're looking at 15 attacks per minute, CS adds 20 to that, so you're at 25...If/Since the PPM system works to give you a percentage chance of proc based on your swings per minute, you're looking at around a 50% chance based off your 15 normal strikes...and 5 of those CS's. So a total of 37 or so attacks. Some at full+more, some at full, and some at 70% unmitigated. You effectively turn a 3.8 speed weapon into a 1.6 speed weapon. Of course thats all hinging on if thats how PPM works, and if it doesnt take CS into account when calculating your swings per minute.

The vengeance change doesnt look quite so grim with that possibility stretching out before us, does it?

Thats the optimistic outlook however, and not the one I forsee them taking. I imagine we'll see another change in the near future to change CS's cooldown to 8 seconds, and Vengeance either returning to 15% or being reduced in talent points to 3 instead of 5. Lessen the sting a bit. All in all, CS was going to be nerfed, Kalgan all but admitted it when he talked to us about why we got it. Vengeance is the oddball in this equation. As others have said its been in the tree in that format for nearly 3 years now, we had it since before the game released...not long before it was released, but still a little bit before it was released. This is the one straight out of left field that has alot of us hurting, its the one untouched thing we've had forever, the one stable rock everyone could agree was awesome on its own. Cause hey, its a 15% damage gain when you crit. Whats not to love? Blizzard just decided to paint the rock pink and its caught us by suprise.

Current Stance: Wait and see...they've not removed things entirely yet, so things are still better than they were a month or two ago.

As for Holy...Really the only change I think it needs is for its 41 point talent. Paladins are already supremely efficient healers, what they need is speed and/or power. To that end, if it was me making the decisions id go for Divine Illumination causing all your healing spells to be instant cast and gain 10% to the ammount they heal for a 50% cost increase...same 10 second duration, same 3 minute cooldown. It gives paladins supreme burst healing, with an increase in power while they're at it. Tossing down instant holy lights would give them the "oh snap" healer role. "When the shat hits the fan the paladins your man!" and whatnot.

Thats my thoughts on things at least. Not like Blizzard's ever listened to me, lord knows ive tried, hehe.

2:22 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm actually very disappointed with the changes to ret. The tree was fine, now it got some serious nerfs again, while the other two trees remain 'ok, but need work'

Vengeance was never changed and now getting the option to use a strike every 10sec it becomes so overpowered, justifying a nerf to 10%? Ridiculous.
It was fine the way it was, but if they want to nerf it, make it a 4 point talent 3/6/9/12 or a 3 pt. talent with 4/7/10; but this nerf to 2/4/6/8/10 is just a joke.

And Crusader Strike, I don't know, if it is too strong, since i'm not in the beta, but increasing it's cooldown is the worst nerf Blizz can do. When it's too strong, decrease damage and mana cost, but don't increase Cd. With 10sec you have one chance to renew the judgements in pve, with 6sec cd you had 3. It's totally useless now for pve

2:53 PM  
Anonymous Arganoth said...

I did my math wrong, its early and ive not slept (GG Insomnia! GFG!).

You get 15 normal attacks, 6 CS's, and 10 SoComm procs (7 from the normal, 3 from the CS's). 31 attacks per minute making your 3.8 speed weapon an effective 1.9 speeder. Now if those do 500 damage (350 SoComm's) each...no spell damage, no crits, no percentage boostings, and no judging...thats 233.33 repeating DPS. Not too shabby really.

3:28 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ok. I AM in beta. CS and Vengeance needed nerfed. A paladin should not be able to hit for over 5k and put a shield up. Ret paladins were incredibly overpowering. With current gear, if you arent in 5/5 avengers, I can see your concern. But gear like avengers is plentiful in the expansion. With that said, its probably an over-nerf and there may be other buffs. It hasnt made it on to the beta realms yet, so we will see.

Protection is amazing, all the way up to 31 points. Then it needs work. The new reckoning tears stuff up. Redoubt and reckoning go off all the time even with tanking gear on. And yes paladins can tank. And they can tank well. Im almost 63 and I tank Hellfire Ramparts, Blood Furnace, and the Underbog all the time. Im up to 9k armor, 350 defense, 500+ stamina, and 115 spell power without enchants. Im 2/31/20 at the moment. Soloing is easy with protection.

And holy has some amazing talents. The 41 point talent is good for healing. With the increased crit rate from holy light, and illumination, you can get a TON of healing done for very little mana.

All this talk from people who are not in the beta, and getting upset over non-final, future talent changes needs to stop. Honestly, you have no idea what is going on, or how things are working in reality ( rather than theory).

4:09 PM  
Anonymous Aradius said...

quoting ^^ "Ok. I AM in beta. CS and Vengeance needed nerfed."

Wrong on all counts bud...

First CS:

I am in beta as well and CS was just fine. I have some T1, 2 pieces of T2 & now some BC gear. Soloing with CS is nice but not overpowered. I hit mobs for 300-500 with CS, and can crit for 700ish, at times higher more depending on mob type.

In dungeons, I have crit for 1k+ with CS but that's with Sunders, Sanct. Crusader & various other debuffs on the mob. Sometimes I get a streak of big numbers but that's too be expected. CS & other BC Ret tree changes brought up Paladin output but not to the total overshadowing of other classes.

As for Vengeance nerf:

Totally uncalled for :(

4:46 PM  
Anonymous Aradius said...

Oh and one more thing...

Not everyone has 5/5 Avengers (though we may wish for it dearly).

Basing CS around the small % of all Pallys (not BC beta Pallys) with Avengers is kinda silly.

4:49 PM  
Blogger Lord Vir said...

Blue replied to a thread about the
cs nerf


As for some of us not being in beta, my guildmate is and a paladin is his first alt so he plays him in beta fairly frequently and he keeps me filled in.

I should mention he told me that judgement of justice is nice for world pvp. He mentioned judging it on mounted players slows them to runspeed (ie 100%).

Oh, and paladins hitting for 5000 damage in Avengers gear? Please tell us exactly how that happened. I think you are a troll who has been watching the bugged arena video a bit too much.

5:23 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

No, im not. When a paladin gets a white crit for 2k, a SoC crit for 1.7k, and a CS crit for 1k, that pretty damn close to 5k. And its not hard with DPS gear, especially with what is available in the expansion.

vengeance and CS are fine for PVE. Its PvP, and combining that with divine shield that its a problem.

Go try and 2v2 in the arena against 2 paladins. Its laughable. The only thing thats equally overpowered is 2 BM hunters.

5:43 PM  
Anonymous Vaelin said...

Fuck Protection and fuck Holy. My previously finalized build for the expansion just got reduced to 66% its former effectiveness. I will be cancelling my subscription after I finish out the 3 guild raids I was already signed up for.

6:06 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

surely a paladin does a 2k white crit, when crusader strike, an ability, that deals more damage than an auto-attack crits for 1k

6:18 PM  
Anonymous Aradius said...

quoting - "When a paladin gets a white crit for 2k, a SoC crit for 1.7k, and a CS crit for 1k, that pretty damn close to 5k"

I haven't gotten anything near that in PVE soloing. My best was 1.1 SoC, 1k CS & 1.2k white (all 3 crit, tell me that happens often >_< ) in a dungeon on a debuffed, fully sundered mob with me having battleshout, BOM, etc and Vengeance & Crusader(enchant) proc.

To the haters, we have to spend 41(!!) points to go from a proc/chance only combat system to having 1 on-command attack.

And finally to anonymous guy again (who mentioned this 5k burst), your 5k dmg scenario is reliant on a triple crit proc (which is very rare and requires 5/5 Avengers).

Let me ask this, how long does it take a 5/5 Conqueror Warrior w/ Sulfuras (or equivalet) to do 5k dmg?? Not very long and he doesn't have to rely on chance as much as a pally would.

How long does it take a T1/T2 mage to do 5k dmg? Again, not very long, with little reliance on lucky crits or procs.

So please, lay off the "omgwtfpally-can-dps-if-he-has-insanely-rare-gear"...

6:20 PM  
Blogger Lord Vir said...

No, im not. When a paladin gets a white crit for 2k

Bullshit. List any DPS gear from thottbot.com/beta that will lead to a 2K white crit. A paladin would need near 2K attack power to pull that off, which isn't happening with the expansion gear or the extra ranks of blessing of might. I've looked at the fucking EPIC ARENA rewards, and they don't give that kind of attack power and paladins aren't running around with gear even close to that on beta.

Just to prove my point, the melee based gladiator's vindication set (level 70, epic arena reward) has a total strength rating of 125. The level 60 field marshal set has 111. There isn't much mudflation going on, except with the stamina stat, which is intended.

http://thottbot.com/beta?set=402
http://thottbot.com/beta?set=583

So, in short, you are full of shit when you say paladins are critting for 2k damage on a melee swing in beta. Go troll elsewhere.

7:23 PM  
Anonymous Suicidal Zebra said...

2k crit may be possible under some very specialised conditions. Namely raid buffed, zero-armour target, Avenging Wrath, Earthstrike, Berserking, warrior in Berserker Stance, Vengence, using MoM. Of course, under similar conditions any other class will do an order of magnitude more damage in a similar time frame.

If those two talents were nerfed because of such an occurance the devs have a screw loose.

8:08 PM  
Anonymous Jorin said...

Take the following FWIW. One of my circle of internet friends works at Blizzard and is usually very tight-lipped about the internal goings on, but he had some interesting info he let me share with you guys:

"The whole deal is because of internal testing with high-end raid gear. Ret Paladins with the right top-end gear were laying waste to other classes in PVP and were outdpsing Hunters and Warlocks in some raid encounters. It's the same problem Warriors have been complaining of - being nerfed because of high-end items. On the one hand they have to make items powerful so people have incentive to raid, and then on the other they have to keep the classes balanced so PVP doesn't suffer. It's tough."

"The other thing is that Tom (Chilton) didn't even want Crusader Strike released to beta when they did, he wanted to test it out more because he's aware that nerfs to the pally talents won't be taken well. The thing is that the designers have Corporate on their back about the paladin, because the paladin class has far and away the most cancellations due to unhappiness with the class. This is why you guys got pretty much everything you asked for."

8:38 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

[Quote]The thing is that the designers have Corporate on their back about the paladin, because the paladin class has far and away the most cancellations due to unhappiness with the class.[/quote]

Well, duh, what did they expect? Paladins were changed too much from their original (Vanilla Beta) roots.
Why was that, anyway?
I mean, ok, Pallies were very strong back then. But some nerfs would've done the trick, too. So why rehaul the complete class?
Add to that that we were (and maybe are) being lied to - it shouldn't come as a surprise at all.

[quote]This is why you guys got pretty much everything you asked for[/quote]

I don't want to seem ungrateful, really. But the stuff we asked for wasn't implemented.
Snare? Nope.
Counterspell? Still will be a problem (though not as brain-crunching frustrating as it is now).
Taunt? Nope.
Strike? Yes and no. Right now, we only see the nerf and God knows how we will scale with BC's high-end equip.

Of course, if we lay waste to everyone else and out dps the dps classes, that's not ok. What people don't seem to get is that we don't wnat to be overpowered - we just want to have three viable trees.

Also, Blizz should finally kick their design for the Paladin - the way the game is now, support classes aren't fun at all - of course, this is not Blizz's fault, but by now, they should see clearly that a more or less pure support class will always be unhappy.

The community and the game probably moved in a direction that wasn't planned and now the paladins are on the wrong end of the hierarchy ("STFU and buff me").

I'm still for a complete overhaul. I know this is probably asking for too much, but imho the damage is done and a few tweaks here and there just won't cut it. We all can see that there is no synergy, no creative force behind all those changes.

The big picture that Blizz has for the Paladin doesn't work. Try something else, really.

Again: Why did they re-invent the Paladin before retail vanilla? This was the beginning of this whole mess.

So if your friend (if he exists ;) ) could answer this question, it would be pretty awesome. Not like telling any secrets or something, just what did the Dev's think?

8:58 PM  
Anonymous Lindisfarne said...

@jorin:
Let me guess, they just tested it with BE pallies, didn't they?
Yeah, yeah, SoB will pwn pretty much, I feel it in my thumbs.

9:03 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"The other thing is that Tom (Chilton) didn't even want Crusader Strike released to beta when they did, he wanted to test it out more because he's aware that nerfs to the pally talents won't be taken well. The thing is that the designers have Corporate on their back about the paladin, because the paladin class has far and away the most cancellations due to unhappiness with the class. This is why you guys got pretty much everything you asked for."

I'm sorry, but that sounds too farfetched to be true. I can't imagine that the increase in paladin cancellations would be statistically significant.

In truth, just adding Blood Elves to the game would contribute more to Blizzard's bottom line than fixing paladins, especially from a marketing perspective. Which do you think is easier, advertising "The Burning Crusade: Now with Working Paladins!" or "The Burning Crusade: Hot Blood Elf Chicks!"?

9:13 PM  
Anonymous Suicidal Zebra said...

Given that early on, Paladins were by far the largest class population Alliance side, and one of the larger classes taken as a whole, it is entirely possible that such a statistic exists. Especially if you consider the number of players which perhaps didn't go on to re-roll another class, there has to be a reason for the lack of Paladins kicking round these days beyond 'I re-rolled to a Warlock in 1.5'.

I too have my doubts about the authenticity of Jorin's statement (no offense mate, I'm a natural cynic), but I don't see it as far-fetched. In fact, I would be surprised if Paladins weren't at the top of the list of cancelled accounts, simply because of absolute population numbers as much as anything else.


Anonymous above:

Again: Why did they re-invent the Paladin before retail vanilla? This was the beginning of this whole mess.

From what I have read, two reasons mainly. The first was that the Crusader Strike - Holy Strike mechanic was apparently dull as dishwater (think Rogues with only one combo-point ability and finisher) and garnered a number of 'Yawn' complaints. The second was that the rest of the class was built around anti-Undead abilities which absolutely murdered the Undead (before they were Forsaken, i.e. 'humanoid') but the Undead murdered all other races if there was no Paladin around because of passive CC immunity.

Cue the change, the Judgement system, which had promise but only three Judgements were that useful, and Undead->Forsaken which gutted our PvP offensive capability in the long run. In addition there were a few other cosmetic changes (resist aura used to be + to all resists, seals and blessings swapped in designation, etc), but the irony is that a boring repetative but interactive system (against non-undead) was replaced by a non-interactive boring RNG-dominated system that may have been tested in terms of its absolute power but not in long-term play.

There is more that can be said of the pre-1.9 paladin, and indeed the Paladin at release, but I don't think we can say that we would for sure be happier if the beta Paladin made it to retail. What it does mean however is that we know not to take anything for granted, and until it have been Live for over a couple of months don't think that it can't be substancially changed. Even Vengence it seems.

9:58 PM  
Anonymous jorin said...

@ anonymous above re: taunt/snare/counterspell -

We did get all of those, in some form of shape or another. Granted we didn't get them implemented as we would have liked. Righteous Defense is a taunt, after a fashion. JoJ being a "snare" is very iffy, I agree. CS works when silenced so that was addressed, but again not as we probably would have liked.

10:11 PM  
Anonymous jorin said...

@ Anonymous again re: beta paladin

Pretty much Suicidal Zebra explained it. Basically 1-1-1-1-2 combat system, and the devs were dissatisfied with it.

One thing I can tell you, the Seal/Judgment system was inspired by a game of Magic the Gathering. One of the sets had these enchantments called Seals that you could sacrifice to do different effects.

10:27 PM  
Blogger Lord Vir said...

"The whole deal is because of internal testing with high-end raid gear. Ret Paladins with the right top-end gear were laying waste to other classes in PVP and were outdpsing Hunters and Warlocks in some raid encounters.

Since hunters and warlocks don't use their pets in raid encounters, I suppose this could be possible. It still seems unlikely, I guess a non-pve spec'ced lock who has to worry about aggro might lose out to a ret paladin who gets a lot of lucky crits. It still seems unlikely if the lock knew how to play.

It's the same problem Warriors have been complaining of - being nerfed because of high-end items. On the one hand they have to make items powerful so people have incentive to raid, and then on the other they have to keep the classes balanced so PVP doesn't suffer. It's tough."

They could have simply nerfed the spell power portion of it, I find it hard to believe even in high end raid gear the paladin would have impressive raid dps. The retribution set rom the arena only gives 104 spell power. You can stack spell power to jack that stat up, but you will lose out on strength and crit though.

Maybe this was a problem with fanatcism? I would think fanatcism along with a very high crit rate would produce a lot of DPS, which maybe led to the vengence nerf, but if anything fanatcism should have been nerfed if the problem was too many vengence procs.

I was even thinking, hey if I have like 30% to crit, then I get 15% from fanatcism, vengence will be on all the time!

When you add that to avenging wrath and sanctity aura, it could get nasty in pvp.

"The other thing is that Tom (Chilton) didn't even want Crusader Strike released to beta when they did, he wanted to test it out more because he's aware that nerfs to the pally talents won't be taken well.

He didn't seem to mind with divine illumination.

The thing is that the designers have Corporate on their back about the paladin, because the paladin class has far and away the most cancellations due to unhappiness with the class.

I could believe this, simply because if you go to cancel your account today, there is a drop down list asking you why, and one of the answers is "1.9 paladin changes". I didn't notice any other class having their talent review as a reason for quitting.

This is why you guys got pretty much everything you asked for.

A lot of the popular things we asked for were recieved (ie avenging wrath) in one form or another.

The problem with the paladin class in pvp is that we don't have the combat options the other melee classes have. Basically we've got no snare, no kick/pummel, no way to close the distance (stealth/charge), and no way to keep someone close to us for a prolonged period of time (intercept/stunlock).

Now, to be fair a paladin in the battlegrouds in full lawbringer, spec'ced holy/prot is probably the best pvp healer in the game as the game stands now. Hell, I was spec'ced like that for a few months to run AB/WSG with my guild. I was utterly pathetic alone, but I was tough in group pvp as a healer.

That just isn't what most paladins signed up for, and when this game was made, they said there would be no pure support classes. A paladin shouldn't have to wield a warrior in pvp to be a threat.

I asked this question a while back on here, and I'll ask it again. If the 41 point talent in retribution took away divine shield, blessing of protection, and holy light, but gave paladins a strike, something like kick, a 900 point 1.5 second heal for more mana, and a decent damage buff...is there any doubt that at least 50% of the paladins would spec that?

10:51 PM  
Blogger Lord Vir said...

From what I have read, two reasons mainly. The first was that the Crusader Strike - Holy Strike mechanic was apparently dull as dishwater (think Rogues with only one combo-point ability and finisher) and garnered a number of 'Yawn' complaints. The second was that the rest of the class was built around anti-Undead abilities which absolutely murdered the Undead (before they were Forsaken, i.e. 'humanoid') but the Undead murdered all other races if there was no Paladin around because of passive CC immunity.

That is the problem, we actually had a role in pvp back then that wasn't centered around just support. They never fixed the mechanic of what paladins would be doing when they got rid of us as 'undead killers'.

Man, if only they let us use our anti-undead spells on undead for 30 seconds after they use will of the forsaken. LOL.

10:54 PM  
Anonymous Nonnobis said...

Another nerf incoming?

http://beta.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html;jsessionid=B25576A67F3CF616D69EE7F89D43982B?topicId=920174&sid=1

12:22 AM  
Anonymous jorin said...

Tseric speaks:

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=39414260&pageNo=1&sid=1

12:45 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

They probably don't even know where paladin dps is coming from half the time so they randomly wield the nerfbat at stuff.

12:56 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Blue looking for feedback. I can't post from work, so make the most of it.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html;jsessionid=2565D991C785D69E8CA4FB2052EF9553?topicId=39453970&sid=1

1:17 AM  
Anonymous Suicidal Zebra said...

As said in the thread, they really need a separate thread for each talent tree if they want detailed feedback. One thread will result in a conflating of the issues and lack of depth in the discussion.

That said, and feedback would be nice, but I doubt we will get answers to the questions we want. We've been here before, fool me once...

1:59 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If it is the case that balancing is being done on the Basis of Gear that 99.9% of players won't see then something is very very wrong.


Gear should only ad an edge not define the viability of your character. I have often felt that this was the case but to "allegedly" hear it from from the Horses mouth really is disappointing

12:26 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If you cant get gear with the new smaller instances, or through the more casual friendly PvP, especially with the vastly improved itemization for paladins, then you really need to look at your ability as a player. At that point, the best gear in the world wont help you.

3:24 PM  

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