24 October, 2006

Crusader Strike and Vengeance Nerfs

The scoop here. Crusader Strike's cooldown uppet from 6 seconds to 10 seconds, and Vengeance decreased from 15% to 10%.

40 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

The nerf dosent bother me that much...but this was probably done so command rightousness and blood could proc with crusader strike.

9:57 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yeah sure lol... get real

CS was nerfed b'cos of Seal of Blood True Story. Same with Vengeance

10:03 PM  
Blogger Lord Vir said...

I highly doubt that. If it automatically proc'ced whatever seal you had cast, then it might be worth it, but going from 6 seconds to 10 is a huge nerf.

10:04 PM  
Blogger Lord Vir said...

CS was nerfed b'cos of Seal of Blood

Hmm, I hadn't thought of that.

10:04 PM  
Anonymous Arganoth said...

It would have been nice if they'd tell us that instead of leaving it to us to find out.

Thats like going to warriors and changing Mortal Strike to a 15 second cooldown...and then conveniently forgetting to tell them its because they're getting passive in-combat rage regen in addition to their hitting and being hit portion.

Its why theres currently an uproar in the forums. If they can proc on CS now, thats great and everyone will be fine with things...if they cant, then this is the response one would expect.

CS's cooldown increasing? Perfectly understandable...its a talent thats in flux as they continue to watch and test and balance it; but Vengeance? As someone else said its as old as the tree itself, and this change is just a wee bit strange.

Either way im still excited, I mean...Ill get to hit things in the face now and not worry about the RNG being mean and not having command go off. *Shrug*

10:06 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

seal of blood dosnt work with cursader strike.

10:21 PM  
Blogger Lord Vir said...

I think he meant the DPS of SoB was the reason it got nerfed.

I still think they should have kept the 6 second timer and upped the mana cost if need be.

10:34 PM  
Anonymous Arganoth said...

The problem with that is not every paladin gets SoB...so wheres that leave the alliance paladins?

10:36 PM  
Blogger Lord Vir said...

Right in the back of raids, and pvp groups where they want us.

10:55 PM  
Blogger Ghmou / Micah said...

Are you freaking kidding me?

Blizzard giveth, and Blizzard taketh...

...and taketh
...and taketh
...and taketh





...and taketh.

Argh!

11:35 PM  
Anonymous Nonnobis said...

A measured and constructive post on the beta forum http://beta.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=800111&sid=1

12:22 AM  
Anonymous Nonnobis said...

And you know what else? Paladins should all learn to tone it the heck down in the beta. If anything good happens, just mutter something about how it isn't too bad and look martryed.

No joy. No happiness. Lose to everyone who duels you or faces you in the BGs. Like that. Sneak in some good stuff that way maybe. I'm just saying.

12:45 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

What i don't like is the huge uproar that happened and everyone just flipping the hell out about this. Everyone acts like were worse off then we were before.
Hell if they added crusader strike with 10 second cool down at the begining everyone would have jumped on board for that.

1:03 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

WTF!? I can deal with the CS cooldown increase, but Vengeance? It's been 15% for 2 years! Why are they nerfing old talents? I believe everything was quite fair what with DS being dispellable but apparently Paladins needed another goddamn nerf while the rest of the classes enjoy buffs to new and old talents.

Unbelievable

1:16 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"And you know what else? Paladins should all learn to tone it the heck down in the beta. "

Agreed! Every video released, every victim at the hands of a pally, just added to the likelihood we'd get nerfed. The SoR bug didn't help ameliorate the general wailing and gnashing of teeth by the other classes.



"Everyone acts like were worse off then we were before.
Hell if they added crusader strike with 10 second cool down at the begining everyone would have jumped on board for that."

And what of the Vengence nerf? Besides, the fact that the duration of Judgements is a multiple of the CS cooldown just means a single miss/dodge/parry is going to result in all but the Paladin's own Judgements expiring. Make the cooldown 9sec, or the duration 22sec, something so that there's a chance of getting a second CS hit.

1:19 AM  
Anonymous Suicidal Zebra said...

*head collides with keyboard*

I think, like everyone else, that I cannot understand why Vengence was nerfed. 15%->10% is a straight 5% DPS nerf given a reasonable crit rate, and I reckon that if we do the math the new CS/Veng combination essentially gives us parity with our current DPS, with added control. As things stand, the new reckoning proc'ing SoC makes more sense from a burst DPS point of view in PvP if you are willing to sacrifice control, and we are again in a quandry as to whether the DPS of a ret paladin /w Sanctified Crusader is worth it in 25-man raiding.

As for the testing, the beta server having twinked-out characters is the big issue. One can only observe the effect of the extreme gear, and not the most common gear avaliable (which is still a combo of Tier0/0.5/1 /w low rank PvP), and that is no basis to make significant changes with talents rather than mana cost tweaks.

Bah, nevermind. My Paladin is retired and will remain retired in favour of my horde Warlock. I may make an affirmative decision when the changes are done, but right now I'll just get back into pwning in WSG.

1:45 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Cancelling Reorder.

First i preordered BC and after i read the first talents i Cancelled the order. Then after Crusader Strike came i reordered the preorder. Now after the nerf ive cancelled it again. NOT because of the nerf because as a paladin i feel something like Rocky Balboa getting knocked down with every patch. The difference is that i never get to win, never get to shine, never can be really good at anything. FFS check the warlocks new pet that is a warrior with intercept.

I WILL NOT play this game anymore as a paladin. because the reasons of balancing and roles has put the paladin last in line. We will not be good at DPS, hardly at tanking and no real buff to healing. This is not compared to existing talents preBC but compared to other classes.

To pay to support? What the hell give me the bank account number of Furor and Tigole and i can pay them money directly instead of paying for others to have more fun.

As of BC i think that will class imbalance in numbers. We are 10 paladins active in our guild. We are in Naxx and AQ40 3days a week. Other days farming ZG and AQ20 we have to invite paladins from other guilds just to be 1(one) pally. When our Naxx/AQ40 nights are over all pallys either logoff or change to an alt. My vision is, come BC, the pally community will decrease in serious numbers. At least i know one, thats me.

1:59 AM  
Anonymous Ephor said...

THE CRITADIN IS DEAD!

No point in going crit gear for a FIVE point 10% dps increase (they made it weaker AND more expensive per percentage gain).

Wow, a whole line of itemization is dead, gg bliz.

2:13 AM  
Blogger Lord Vir said...

Hell if they added crusader strike with 10 second cool down at the begining everyone would have jumped on board for that.

No, they wouldn't have. They would have started talking about how mortal strike was on a six second cooldown, and how shaman shocks are on a six second cooldown.

The paladin community may be fractured between fanbois and disgruntled players, but the disgruntled players would have had the sense to see that 10 seconds was too long. There would have been a lot of "Too little too late" posts, along with "Even when blizzard tries to give us stuff they half ass it".

2:36 AM  
Blogger Lord Vir said...

THE CRITADIN IS DEAD!

The 15% crit bonus of fanatcism will likely keep the critadin alive. The funny part is, if crusader strike was on a 6 second cooldown it would have likely killed the critadin because of the high mana cost in spamming it. By putting it on a 10 second cooldown, it actually makes the critadin more viable.

Still the nerf to vengence is annoying, because we've had it for so long. Even if it stacks well with avenging wrath and sanctity aura...Isn't that the point? It's all purgable anyway (except the aura..so far).

It reminds me a lot of 1.9, where they give us something cool (judgment of command) but make it underpowered, but it's something so we are happy. Then they punch us in the face with a nerf (70% weapon damage instead of 100% on SoC) and another nerf (forbearance).

The only patch I remember us being buffed in where we didn't get nerfed was the hammer of GG patch.

2:40 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Haha, that's just.... just.... ridculous. A few days of whining by other classes and down we go. Nerf again (and to motherfucking VENGEANCE???).
Thank God I wanted to wait before ordering. Wtf indeed.

Well, I guess the Bloodknights were putting out too much dps with SoB and all the goodies we had, so of course - nerfbat.

It should be clear by now that Blizz never cared about us Alliance Paladins, but instead buffed us so that BE players could have some fun.

2:42 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Back when this whole business started, I said to my wife that we were only going to see paladin buffs so that they could hope to actually keep a few of those many who consistently mention rolling a blood elf pally to stick with it. Outside of those leveling the characters for raiding guilds? I foresee very few having the tolerance for it. When a blood elf makes such a killer user of mana in priest, lock or mage format, to be gimped up by your class's shortcomings is not something I imagine many will trouble themselves with.

I must say though, I didn't think they'd balance the whole class around how the horde side operated.. but if this balancing is going on because of seal of /wrists, I might end up shelving my paladin too. Sad thing.

3:08 AM  
Anonymous Vaelin said...

Hey - on the bright side, the name of this blog is once again an accurate description.

3:50 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I saw CS nerf coming from 1,000,000,000 light years away and before time itself was born.

Vengeance nerf? Even God himself would be surprised.

4:05 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

US Forum down for maintenance? Hahahaha.

Oh man, shit, I'm glad I quit my pally long ago.

4:09 AM  
Anonymous Vaelin said...

In the middle of cancelling my subscription, the account server goes down. They're truly malevolent.

4:15 AM  
Anonymous Suicidal Zebra said...

[b]And what of the Vengence nerf? Besides, the fact that the duration of Judgements is a multiple of the CS cooldown just means a single miss/dodge/parry is going to result in all but the Paladin's own Judgements expiring. Make the cooldown 9sec, or the duration 22sec, something so that there's a chance of getting a second CS hit.[/b]

I initially thought that this was incorrect, but i'm wrong and 'Anonymous' is totally right. This means that one failed hit (and we all know that is by no means a rare occurance for a Paladin) for CS requires that JoL and JoW need to be re-judged, which considerably reduces the raid viability of the talent. Giving us two bites at the cherry (with a 9 sec cooldown) would be better as a minimum, and 6-secs with 20 second judgements just gravy. If things remain as they are though, better to bring back Lasting Judgement to the holy paladins talents.

BTW, when posting please give a name. It's a lot easier for us to refer to previous comments, and means we (okay, I) can keep track of who is saying what much easier. It doesn't have to be your character name, or a forum username, or have any URL/e-mail link. Please, for a young guy getting confused with all the anonymous posters, do it for me ;).

4:18 AM  
Anonymous SaaaadPally said...

You mean like this?

4:22 AM  
Blogger Lord Vir said...

Hey - on the bright side, the name of this blog is once again an accurate description.

LMAO.

4:37 AM  
Blogger Lord Vir said...

The funny part is, many paladins on the forum say the CS nerf is ok. It's like they have some kind of digital stockholm syndrome.

This class will never go anywhere, because the class is divided into the people who want the cleric in plate, and the others who want a holy warrior. Any time any aspect gets nerfed one half of the class says it's ok, while the others cry bloody murder.

4:47 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well its up to people like me and complain about it in the beta forum...and so far alot of people dont like it so... we have a head start ^_^

6:05 AM  
Anonymous Mchammar said...

Look at it this way: You probably never used the new Crusader strike. Imagine Crusader strike came with a 10 second cooldown from the get-go. Can you honestly say you'd still be as pissed?

6:22 AM  
Anonymous Xgelis said...

There's goes our 15% down to 10%.

Because of SoB is it?

FUCK BLIZZARD. GG. Wait, it's directed to Kalgan.

6:30 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I was planning on coming back for BC, seeing as they genuinly appeared to be no longer constantly screwing us. So much for that. Not coming back anymore, just so sick of the bs they keep flinging at our class.

6:38 AM  
Anonymous Eleutheria said...

"BTW, when posting please give a name."

Sorry, was just being lazy.

At first I couldn't believe it either. How could the devs miss the 20 sec duration/10sec cooldown problem?

As someone on the forums said, the Vengeance nerf might be a distraction so when they restore Vengeance everyone will forget about the CS nerf. I'm not sure if the devs are that Machiavellian.

7:23 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I will so in regards to the 20 sec judge 10 sec cs cooldowns, youre regular hits are still going to refresh seals (right? I havent seen anything contrary) so all its really doing is giving you one more shot then you currently have to renew your seal.

8:03 AM  
Anonymous Arganoth said...

Not so...

CS Renews ALL judgements on the target...which was the big draw for it, you didnt have to have all three paladins wailing away on the thing, just the one crazy paladin up there cackling madly and swinging his axe around with the bloodlust in his eyes. The change takes away from THAT aspect of the ability, giving you pretty much only 1 chance to keep them all up. So if its parried, dodged, or misses, then all those paladins who were standing back out of the "you got a purdy mouth" zone have to come up and reapply their judgement every 20 seconds.

8:50 AM  
Blogger Lord Vir said...

Look at it this way: You probably never used the new Crusader strike. Imagine Crusader strike came with a 10 second cooldown from the get-go. Can you honestly say you'd still be as pissed?

Yes, because as I mentioned before, it was compared to MS initially, and if it were 10 seconds people would have looked at it has half assed. The spellpower bonus is crap and there is no debuff that goes with it. The one redeeming value you had was that at least it was on a six second timer so we'd actually have an ability to use frequently in pvp.

10 seconds cuts the DPS output of the talent nearly in half. Maybe people can do math, and that is why they are upset?

1:45 PM  
Anonymous Suicidal Zebra said...

Look at it this way: You probably never used the new Crusader strike. Imagine Crusader strike came with a 10 second cooldown from the get-go. Can you honestly say you'd still be as pissed?

Lets analyse this for a moment shall we.

The most significant potential for this talent for a raiding Ret paladin is that it could refrese all the judgements on the target. This was a very viable position when it was on a 6-sec cooldown, not only because of refreshing JotC (which would be automatic) but also JoL and JoW which could be themselves on an up-to 40-sec duration allowing many bites of the cherry, as many as six chances in fact. Increasing Paladin DPS was also a not insubstancial change, perhaps making this skill worth having a Ret Paladin wailing on the target.

Then the Judgement duration was changed to 20 secs, and later Lasting Judgement removed. Not too big a deal, that still gives the 6-sec CS three chances to refresh the judgements. Advantage still goes to having a Ret-CS paladin, based upon all the theorycrafting which showed that Paladin DPS was competetive with a 2h-arms warrior now.

Now we have the latest changes. Vengence gets a straight PvE nerf, meaning that a 1.12 build at 60 becomes less effective in TBC than before. That's not 'relatively' less effective compared to other classes, but straight nerfed. Crusader Strike gets taken down from 6 secs, meaning up-to 3 bites of the cherry, to 10 secs, meaning one bite of the cherry. A KISS proposal for the raid would be a 20-sec judging cycle for all paladins, healbotting where necessary to augment more mana-intensive druids and priests.

What does this mean, well it's simple really. In a PvE context, the all-out Ret build (only patch-healing when necessary) becomes substancially harder to sell to your raid because of a DPS not significantly higher than that which exists in 1.12, a requirement for healing, and poor raid viability (too high a chance of failing to refresh the judgements of other paladins).

In a PvP context, non-CS Vengence Paladins got a straight DPS nerf and CS at 10 secs is of a poor standard compared to other strikes which exist at 31pt positions. It beats Sanctified Crusader as a 41pt talent, but not by much, in fact is doubtful that 10-sec CS is good enough to go for over the PvP goodies at <20pts in both Prot and Holy. Six seconds was much more viable because it allows front-loading DPS with a skill that has no secondary PvP effect (unlike SS and MS). Paladin DPS for median-equiped paladins was already poor, even burst DPS during a HoJ, and so one has to ask if we can keep up given the increase to stamina in TBC.

For those of us who go both PvP and PvE, Holy once again is dominant. Burst damage, healing, damage reduction and Sanctity Aura rules the roost (Divine Illumination remains dross) and CS+10% Veng is lowly by comparison. Couple that with perhaps a need for Paladin tanks (until I see the encounters I am unconvinced), and a ret paladin once again is a third-class build in a min-maxing world.

4:06 PM  
Anonymous Aradius said...

My only consolation with these very clear nerfs is that this is a beta still and that there is time for things to revert/improve.

Maybe I'm being too hopeful =\

4:55 PM  

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