13 October, 2006

The Philosophy of Raiding

There's a huge post on how a raider feels like all the time spent in MC to BWL to AQ40 to Naxx was a waste. Plenty of pages long. Including a response from Eyonix. Here's an excerpt from the OP that hit me:
...there IS no long term reward for raiding, except the prospect of more raiding.
Hence the saying I heard from a friend of mine: World of Warcraft is a pie eating contest where the reward is more pie.


Anonymous Arganoth said...

The major selling point of WoW was that it was immediately accessible to a LARGE range of people. The learning curve to get into the game isnt really that high, and through word of mouth and some very clever marketing on Blizzard's end, they managed to become the 800 pound gorilla in the room.

Now the game wasnt without its problems. Theres the casual vs raider debate thats been going on for ages, and thats really what this boils down to. There was a major influx of new people, people who have never played an MMO before, some of them became casuals, and then some of them became raiders. Now people on their first MMO who become raiders probably never realized that "You cant beat the game", theres always going to be "new" out there to make sure that you've not beaten the game. BC however takes a step towards closing the gap between the "uber" and the "Notsouber". This is where the trouble lies.

First time MMOer's come into the game, equate "beating the game" with having the best gear available and then hanging out in Ironforge/Ogrimmar to flaunt it. A new raid instance comes out with incremental increases and they just shrug off as the "new and improved". Here comes BC though, where the people in greens they flaunt that armor too are going to be able to find greens and blues that put them on par with the raider. Which is the real problem, people can complain about how their raid gear is useless now and yada yada yada, but seriously, how is that any different from how it was when you went from MC gear to BWL? BWL to AQ? AQ to Naxx? Theres always going to be some form of Carrot on a stick for you to go after, its just how MMO's work.

The problem isnt that they're going to replace their Naxx gear with mid-60's blues and purples...the problem is that casual players will attain some form of parity with them. The gear gap is going to close for awhile as we're all running through the last 10 levels of the game in assorted blues and greens before we hunker down and raid for Tier 4 or Tier 5 or Tier whatever Epics. The slate is being wiped clean and some people just cant cope with the fact that they spent a year or more gathering gear that will eventually be replaced.

They should be glad that the expansion isnt built around a wider level range or without level restrictions on gear. In Everquest the standard of gear for noob players and raiders alike was a constantly increasing domino effect where you'd see level 1 monks running around with gear that was built for people in their 40's and 50's. At least in the case of BC the upward trend is just for the people in the post 60 world.

"Its a pie eating contest where the reward is more pie."

Ive always liked pie and that statement sums things ups nicely. =)

2:51 PM  
Anonymous Leord said...

Just wanted to point out that the Anticipation talent also have 4 def per talent point now, instead of 2... Meaning 5 tp for +20 defense. Twice as usefull now, but I am not the man to say if it is or isnt useful as a talent..

3:30 PM  
Blogger Lord Vir said...

The reward for raiding was running around with uber gear, even better than the pvp gear (unless you hit rank 14), and getting to level after 60 with that gear.

These people bitch too much.

4:44 PM  
Anonymous Leord said...

Agree a lot:
"World of Warcraft is a pie eating contest where the reward is more pie."

Well, that just means you need to like pie! =) Also quite healthy to take breaks from playing now and then..

They originally said that the diff between HC and casual should be that an casual might get a nice sword with X stats, but the HC will get a similar sword, but that is ablaze with red hot flames, and make woeful blasts at their opponents. IE: Cool fluff.

This isnt true today, there is a HUGE difference between raiders and non-raiders. As content allways will increase, you have to understand that you shouldnt raid if you dont enjoy it. There will never be any "permanent" rewards bewised reputation (skill is on a such rudimentiary level, so not even mentioned!). Sure, I think the "grinding" need could somewhat be minimized by having the rep factions able to provide lvl 70 enchants/recipies for same rep lvl!

Now, isnce I got hacked recently, I kind of think that everything is gear is a bad thing. I did think so before, but after having my entire inventory cleansed, it isnt so funny. All I worked to accomplish is gone.. Well, I finally got it back, but feeling is still bad =( Even after they fixed gear, i still lost 4000ish gold in trade items and cash...

6:26 PM  
Anonymous Leord said...


Got a beta key btw *brag*

7:42 PM  
Anonymous snow said...

WoW is fun. I'm all for analysis, but that's the basic thing that keeps people playing, and if they aren't having fun, they should quit.

8:02 PM  
Blogger Mastgrr said...

Grats Leord!

Blizzard rejected me from their fansite program...I wonder why.

8:34 PM  
Anonymous Arganoth said...

"Blizzard rejected me from their fansite program...I wonder why."


Well, after taking a thorough look, its gotta be one of three things.

A) The title
B) The content
C) The lack of rampant fanboi-on-crack posts about how the devs are gods and you are but a lowly mortal unfit to play their crowning achievement in the annals of history.

Either that or they think you smell funny...do you smell funny?

8:57 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think this is a very distinct reward (not be be included in the beta as a fan site).

You should be very proud of it (although this is not very clear at the first thought but you get into it if you think longer about it...)

9:08 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The rogues have roguespot...we have PALADIN SUCKS!

10:40 PM  
Blogger Mastgrr said...

I mentioned that I was rejected from their fansite program, however this was about a year ago or so. I could always try to apply again, but have been hesitant because they specifically state that they don't want people to ask or do anything if you don't get a reply from your initial submission.

That this is a blog probably contributes to the factor immensely. As already pointed out by Arganoth - first of all, blogs are presumed to be unreliable and unconstrained because the whole thing with blogging rose to fame through basically talking trash about people or spilling out secrets. Blizzard probably are afraid of me giving critique and writing about insider info. I don't consider myself to hating Blizzard or anything at all. I don't hate the Paladin class either. More or less this is the "zero spin zone" for Pallies in my opinion. Second of all, there are a crapload of WoW blogs - so if I would've gotten in to the fansite program then they would plenty of others who want that as well. Third of all, I think the title probably made them not consider this as a serious project to begin with.

One thing that strikes me as odd though is that I've seen absolutely abysmal websites being accepted who have no content or content of zero value. This blog has regular updates, contributors with Vaelin, a very involved and active user base as well (you guys!) and have lasted for soon one and a half years. Content is supposed to be king?

A couple of days ago the counter passed 200,000 page views. That's with 134,315 unique visitors, 56,348 first time visitors and 77,967 returning visitors. I thought that was pretty cool. I guess in some respects this might not be a very big blog, but that's because you have to consider the fact that this is aimed to a very narrow user base and I have mainly relied on word-of-mouth.

10:54 PM  
Anonymous Arganoth said...

You should be proud of the accomplishment. I remember when the place first started up and I came every day. I didnt say anything, but I read everything...

Then I got a new computer, quit WoW, and somewhere along the way lost my link here. Couple months ago I went searching specifically for the place, finding plenty of sites that I wish I hadnt along the way. (My god the perversion...the perversion...)

I like your blog because regardless of what the news is you report it, and you have an opinion that is much like my own. I enjoy reading what you see fit to post (Sans the pr0n the other day..I mean...come on...they couldnt even be original with the name! Whores of Warcraft...jeez show a little creativity, how about World of Whorecraft, now theres some quality porn titlin!) and this is where I come for my news concerning the Paladin class. Ive gotten a bit more vocal recently, because, well I just like to hear my teeth rattle when I flap my jaws...But thats besides the point, I have some insight of my own that I like to share and I hope others dont mind my sharing it.

Personally I couldnt blog to save my life, but I can play heckler and background noise pretty darn good!

Keep up the good work, and lets all remember that Paladins suck...even when we're striking faces and all the other classes hate us and are calling for nerfs.

11:17 PM  
Anonymous Leord said...

Dont strive for the glory of popularity! ;) Keep it down to earth. I mainly "troll" here, as I dont feel myself having time to do so in the AM forums, so much. Mainly EU if any official ones. Also that your thoughts tend to be similar to mine in many of the times.. Not allways though, I am a 100% retnoob with few exceptions ;)

11:27 PM  
Anonymous Arganoth said...

Pffft...I was "retnoob" back when it was called Warladin!

I really hated being called retnoob myself. Ive always strived for "the balance" when it comes to paladins. I dont mind healing, but I want to strike faces too. Is that too much to ask?

11:41 PM  
Anonymous Leord said...

Hehe, fun thing is, I am amonth the best healers in the guild, and our healers are very good over all. Think i have 11/0/40 now or something. I just farm to get the best gear, and to make an effort. Ofcourse there is a balance, but it can be done *while* having a deep and broad ret specc ;-)

12:31 AM  
Blogger Ghmou / Micah said...

Well mate, I love this site. When I open Firefox, it's there. I was initially attracted by the name when I saw it in someone's signature.

I also got yelled at by Eyonix on the forums because I HAD it in my signature.

It keeps us up to date on things, and is a good place for Paladins to think and discuss without being inundated by fanboi clerics (no offense if you ARE a fainboi cleric, of course) who can't see that the class had (and now has!) such great potential.

With BC incoming, I think we're finally seeing the silver lining. Things are looking good. There's no single spec that beats all others, there's space now for true "retnoobs" (I saw someone say that the name should be changed to "Cru-Jock" (crusader strike jock) which I think is fantastic!) as well as letting us old timer would-be tanks have a go at pissing on Warrior's monopolization on tanking. We can, of course, still be decent healers even if we're not Holy specced. For example, my build only goes like 8 points into holy (with imp concentration aura bringing my PvP non-interruption up to 92%, with 15% silence/interrupt resistance =D) and I don't feel like I'll be lacking all that much when it comes to healing in PvP or PvE, thanks to the new rank of BoL and FoL.


12:53 AM  
Blogger Ghmou / Micah said...

Just to clarify, I think a good new phrase would be "Cru Jock" instead of Retnoob. "Waradin" is also acceptable.

12:56 AM  
Anonymous Arganoth said...

Personally, instead of a cutesy madeup name like Warladin, or Crujock, I think we should either think of ourselves as Crusaders, or Avengers...Course im also a stickler for likening us to actual words to fit the situation.

I think of holy paladins as Clerics because...well..thats what they do and what they end up being more like.

I think of prot paladins as Defenders because..again thats what they do..they defend...

and Ret paladins? ive always been partial to Avenger because its just so cool sounding...paladin appears in Judgement armor shouts "I am justice! Avenger of the Alliance!" and then proceed to lay out the smackdown.

Thats just me of course...

1:12 AM  
Blogger Lord Vir said...

I've always prefered the term critadin, maybe because I wrote the critadin spec on MPS and was talking about in on the paladin forum a month or two after release when only one other dude was doing the same thing. lol

1:57 AM  
Anonymous Leord said...

Critadin and retnoob isnt nessecearily the same, but most often ;-) All critadins are retnoobs. Still, the names we use in slang cant be cool like "avenger" and such, it is far too uptight. I like Pallyboys, Huntards, Droods.. =) It kind of defines if you are part of the community, a real newb, or an "outsider", what language you use.. Ofcoure, one might want to intentionally avoid slang to not be seen as a typical "nerd" ;)

5:30 AM  
Blogger Lord Vir said...

oohhh sexy pic of avenging wrath including the wings:


5:37 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"I am justice! Avenger of the Alliance!" and then proceed to lay out the smackdown.

And then kicks blizzards helpless gamedesign in and the bloodknight shouts"

"I'm a blood knight - prove of bad game design and blizzards answer to stupid lead designers! You shall be nurfed!"

SCNR :-)

9:06 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Pffft...I was "retnoob" back when it was called Warladin!

I really hated being called retnoob myself. Ive always strived for "the balance" when it comes to paladins. I dont mind healing, but I want to strike faces too. Is that too much to ask? "

I've always personally called it retardin. It makes me giggle everytime I type it.

Though if I ever want to show off my CS build I better stop it. :P

8:18 AM  

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