12 October, 2006


Gregthegreat receives the honor. Through that he wins a copy of the Burning Crusade from Flibble.

Funny thing is that I was right. He was holding off for these changes before coming to our board.

Update: Thanks Suicidal Zebra, he's answered more stuff now and also confirming that Blessing of Spell Warding won't make it in to the game.


Blogger Thoma said...

Recap for those of us stuck behind a firewall?

9:56 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wow, this is like christmas, thanksgiving, easter, birthday and cake all at once!

9:58 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Recap for those of us at work please! :)

10:08 PM  
Blogger Lord Vir said...

Hmm, so X-sader strike will be full physical damage...that means it makes more sense to stack strength, attack power, and +crit than spell damage unless you are going for the overall 'hybrid'ness of +spell damage.

Notice that he set us up for the nerf:

8. Agreed and solved (hopefully not over-solved at that). ;]

Oh noes! :)

10:09 PM  
Anonymous Suicidal Zebra said...

for Thoma:

Please, provide any reasonable questions here, as I believe based on the Blue text flying in other forums that they'll be paying us a visit soon.

Some questions I have:

* What is the proc rate/chance to proc of Seal of Vengeance?

1. 20 procs per min

* Does Judgement of Vengeance use melee or spell crit rate?

2. Spell crit.

* Can Seal of Blood's Holy damage crit? If so, does it use melee or spell crit rate? Can Judgement of Blood crit? If so, melee or spell crit rate?

3. Yes, SoB $ JoB can crit using melee crit.

* The Paladin class was balanced around DS, as said previously by members of the design team. Is AW the answer to DS being dispellable by MD, or was it really that you thought it would be overpowered in Arena combat?

4. AW is simply designed to give you more flexibility, and would have been made regardless of the dispel change. However, the MD change gives us more freedom to add controlable damage like Crusader Strike.

* Will Judgement of Wisdom and Light be recieving +damage&healing coefficients?

5. No, we feel they're strong enough as-is.

* Spell-lock has always been the most serious issue for Paladins as the class is defined by having a single school. Is there a chance we'll be seeing any more additional abilities added which will function outside of spell-lock?

6. You mean like Crusader Strike? ;]

* Purge/Dispell has also been a serious issue for members of this class, is there a chance we'll see any more increased defense against these spells aside from Stoicism? One of my favorite suggestions by another player was to allow Eye for an Eye to silence the caster for a short period of time.

7. The balance on this one is always going to be on a razor's edge. Push Stoicism a little too far, and the dispels suddenly feel underpowered. No plans to change this just yet, but always evaluating.

* Often posted on the board is that Sanctified Crusader is not worthy of a 41 point ability. Obviously you feel differently, but perhaps you can give us a greater understanding of how critical strike mechanics will work (in terms of crit rating) to allow us to reassess our feelings on the talent?

8. Agreed and solved (hopefully not over-solved at that). ;]

* Will Dwarves ever get real animations? I mean really, throw them a bone, especially Dwarf Female Paladins...

9. Hrm, I'll bring that up with the animators.

* Will Paladins be recieving racial spells similar to Priests?

10. No. With the paladin we decided to focus more on adding a little distinction between Alliance/Horde paladins rather than introduce the kind of balance dangers we've seen in the priest racials.

* I'm sure many future Blood Knights would like to know if there will be an equivalent to Verigan's Fist for them when they reach level 20. So?

11. We hope so.

* Gnome Paladins? You know you want them.

12. Afraid not. :P

* Being more serious, now that both Shaman and Paladins are on each side, we've seen the two classes (thankfullly) diverge a bit. However, will we be seeing the Paladin class becoming more closely linked to the Warrior class?

13. With respect to tanking, definitely. We do expect warriors to be able to output a meaningfully higher amount of dps though (as they're the "tank/dps" hybrid and paladins are the "healer/tank" hybrids... but please don't infer anything from the order those were listed in).

* From Flibble: Sanctified Crusader reads "all attacks," does this mean spells, ranged, and melee attacks or only a subset of these three?

14. Yes, it includes all types of crit.

* What are the chances that we'll get a small mechanics change: that debuff Judgements (JoW, JoL, JotC, JoJ) will be refreshed not only by melee attacks but also DD Judgements?

15. Not planning on it atm, but won't rule it out.

* Can you explain in a little more detail the mechanics of Crusader Strike? Is it physical damage, holy damage, a bit of both?

16. It's 100% physical damage.



The way I see Crusader Strike is that it means that every stat we have is useful (str, Attpower, Int, and +Spell Damage), rather than any single stat being useless for an attack, so we are not overly penalised by hybrid equipment. Given how well we perform against Melee-ers in general I don't mind it being 100% physical as casters generally have s**t for armour.

10:13 PM  
Blogger Thoma said...

Sir Zebra, you are a god among men. Thank you. And sweet holy jesus...is this excitement rather then bitterness I'm feeling? Oh joy.

10:25 PM  
Anonymous Suicidal Zebra said...



'm going to add the questions from my thread to your thread, in hopes that at least one of our threads will get read. My thread is here:

1. Will Righteous Defense have similar aggro-gain properties to Taunt, or is it more like Challenging Shout?
2. Will spells cast under divine illumination regain full mana when they crit, or half mana?
3. Is Seal of Blood based on weapon damage, or weapon swing damage(AP included)? Does it have a spell coefficient?
4. Does judging seal of vengeance expend the charges accumulated? What kind of spell coefficient does it have?
5. Many are concerned with the paladin's pvp viability in an expansion where everybody has more health and potentially, DS is dispellable and DoTs are not(without heavy penalty). Would you say that the paladin's capability for solo pvp has increased or decreased in the expansion? What about group pvp?

1. Will Avenging Wrath be dispelable?
2. Will Blessing of Spell Warding be dispelable?
3. Will Judgment of Justice act as a snare; IE: harmstring?
4. Will Reckoning proc Seal of Command?

1. The effect is identical to Taunt.

2. Full mana.

3. It's based on the total white damage, no additional coefficient.

4. No, the charges are not expended when you judge JoV, .429 coefficient (like JoC).

5. Interesting, it seems every class has that thought. In my experience, it makes PvP feel much more like it did before anyone had epics, certainly not broken.

1. Yes.

2. That spell doesn't exist. So...

3. No, it is not in the Snare category (or any category for that matter), as it doesn't slow anything that isn't moving faster than normal anyways.

4. It can.


Wow, Reckoning can proc SoC (and one guesses the other seals too) Eh? Now that is interesting. Frankly, that'd make CSvsReck quite the interesting dilemma.

11:23 PM  
Anonymous hellfire said...

Indeed. Yesterday I was dreading the expansion. I don't like the direction they took raiding, paladin angst, even more new crap I'll never afford but will be "balanced" as if I could, etc, etc.

But now... now I just don't know. Now I think I'm just scared that I'm going to change my plan to take a Draenai warrior to 70 and stick it out with my paladin only to have this fancy new rug pulled out from under us in 3 months because we're actually dangerous on a battlefield.


11:24 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

well... spell warding's gone for now. But from what Kalgan said, it seems that we may get it in the future.

One can hope.

11:38 PM  
Blogger Lord Vir said...

We still haven't seen an answer to the question "Will SoC proc off of Crusader strike?"

1:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

'We still haven't seen an answer to the question "Will SoC proc off of Crusader strike?"'

Given that SoC can proc off Reckoning, and given that CS is 100% physical damage, it seems reasonable that it would. So, no, probably not.

1:56 AM  
Anonymous Suicidal Zebra said...

Crusader procing SoC would be so absurdly powerful that it has to be in for at least a week on live servers just so we can all have a good old laugh before it is nerfed. Think of it as an MS-lite proc'ing a vastly improved Sword Spec. Yeah, nasty.

It has to be said that also the improvement to DPS from such an effect would be huge for a ret Paladin. You go from x white DPS to x+x*(40% SoC Holy + 50% CS + 20% SoC off CS) total DPS, or 210% of base white DPS. This is without Crits, Vengence (which should be up 24/7) Sanctity Aura, Judgements or Avenging Wrath. Pretty close to raid-viable DPS probably in fact, though we are heavily mana-constrained in that role. CS Proc'ing JoW would be pretty handy in PvE too. Yeah, I don't think that will go through tbh, but it is a nice idea.

In addition, suddenly we have to start being aware of our Global Cooldown an awful lot more to get the most out of every Judgement Cycle (and still get a Cleanse, Heal, BoF, Consecrate or Undead-Specific spell it when necessary).

Bring it on I say.

2:27 AM  
Anonymous Suicidal Zebra said...

Here's a thought. If SoC doesn't proc from CS, maybe we should cast an eye to SotC (No sniggering in the back please!).

We lose a lot of efficiency Mana-wise because of the need to re-seal twice every cycle if we want to Judge Command. But we gain 306 Melee Attack power (un-improved) which will modify CS's damage. So long as CS remains unmodified by the down-side to SotC (a fairly good chance, could do with testing in beta obviously), the damage increase would be pretty significant. Especially against targets with lower armour ratings (Hello Mages!).

Worth a thought.

2:39 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

While we Ally Pallys are rejoicing.... think about how overpowered this whole stuff will become with SoB....

Again, Horde wins by a large margin - except if I'm wrong.
God, I so hope I'm wrong.....

2:57 AM  
Anonymous Arganoth said...

Im more interested in Seal of Righteousness + Crusader Strike myself. With the changes recently to how it works with two-handers, thats all the more damage being stacked on to your instant strike every 6 seconds. Its no Seal of Command, but command is streaky, righteousness is reliable...

At the top rank of the spell thats around 70 holy damage going off in addition to your crusader strike every 6 seconds.

3:27 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It's sad.

You see an improvement on paladins and the paladins itself began to seek for overpowerness.

If such was considered at a class like shaman they would be the same gimp like a paladin.


(6sek earthshock? 6sek frostshock? Earthbind? Chain Lightning? Windfury (which already was so overpowered that is was nerfed by Blizzard. Blizzard nerfs shaman - that is the definition of imbalance) Why is that not vastly overpowered? look at other classes - just a hint...)

Man - this class is dead. More dead than a dead horse.

Looks like only the clueless healbots and the sado maso paladins are left - all others seems to have quit this class after all what the idots at blizzard had done...

I think we should get a pet which constantly beat the crap out of paladins (and which will - of course - the only thing which is not dispellable).

7:56 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm just looking around the pally Beta Forum and see that the Blood Knights are in a Guild called "Chilton's Heroes"?? One of them is already 62??

I dunno... just dunno.... but I'm no longer wondering if SoB will be "overpowered" (at leats for Pally class) :\

1:24 PM  
Anonymous Gerbodis said...

Seal of bloodis actually a pretty cool spell, in the beta a guy just got his BE Pally to 63!!!! from

4:14 PM  
Blogger Lord Vir said...

Crusader procing SoC would be so absurdly powerful that it has to be in for at least a week on live servers just so we can all have a good old laugh before it is nerfed.

I don't think it would be, if you read the beta boards one of the complaints that all ret paladins had was that with the new stamina buff, it was impossible for them to kill anyone. It will be interesting to see how the mechanic works with CS. I know that sinister strike for rogues procs weapon buffs, which is what SoC basically is. I think sinister strike can also proc sword specilization on my rogue, but I'd have to double check that.

Either way, xsader strike is going to be good.

4:48 PM  
Anonymous Pern said...

Well no one asked but he didn't address that the Flash of Light Coefficient from gear has been reduced even more to 20%...

but we got a 41 pt talent for Ret Paladins!!!

11:06 PM  
Blogger Ghmou / Micah said...

My understanding from some post (which I lost, I'll look later) indicated that Crustrike cannot proc SoC... dunno if that means it cannot proc anything.

So, like an earlier poster said, is Crustrike meant to be used in conjunction with SotC? COULD WE BE SEEING THE REVIVAL OF AN UNUSED SEAL? Additionally...

Use Judge SotC for +holy damage and +crit (Sanct Crus), Reseal SotC and immediately Crustrike with the added crit, spellpower and AP, then switch back to SoC and judge it (with SotC still up!) for another buttload of damage? There's some serious potential for asskicking here, especially in raids, but also in PvP if you can get the timing down.

1:04 AM  
Blogger Lord Vir said...

It seems like between crustrike, and fanaticism, that if you have a good melee crit rate, you will keep vengence up forever...

3:27 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"In addition, suddenly we have to start being aware of our Global Cooldown an awful lot more to get the most out of every Judgement Cycle (and still get a Cleanse, Heal, BoF, Consecrate or Undead-Specific spell it when necessary)."

That's a good thing!

I remember when our combat system consisted of just poping a seal and waiting 30 seconds for it to wear off so you could play your character again!

7:48 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"So, like an earlier poster said, is Crustrike meant to be used in conjunction with SotC? COULD WE BE SEEING THE REVIVAL OF AN UNUSED SEAL? Additionally..."

No that wouldn't work. You must understand how SOTC affects your character and how instants work. We all know that the slower the weapon the better when it comes to instant attacks like SOC or MS.

Now it may have been awhile since anyone has EVER used seal of the crusader as a seal, but you must realize its 300 AP or so and that it makes you attack 40% faster but hitting for less. What this means is you hit for less per swing to make it so the 40% speed increase doesn't effect your DPS. So if you have a 50 dps weapon with 3.00 speed it will be a 1.8 speed weapon doing 50 dps. But look it doesn't work like flurry or Slice n dice. Flurry you actually DO deal 30% faster damage and still hitting for the same. What SOTC also does is effect how your AP applies to your swings. So that 1.8 weapon will now be what your AP is multiplied by. So if you had 3.00 weapon before, with 1400 AP you would hit for 300 more per swing. With 1.8 weapon speed you will hit for 180 per swing.

TLDR VERSION: SOTC transforms your weapon into a faster weapon.

By using SOTC you will actually lower your DPS since your Crusader strikes will hit for less.

8:02 AM  
Anonymous Suicidal Zebra said...

Anonymous above:

It depends on what Crusader Strike takes as it's weapon specs, your raw "AP, Weapon DPS and Speed" or that modified by SotC.

I believe that this is the first time we will be able to assess SotC's interaction with an instant attack (with weapon speed normalisation or not) and we don't know precisely how it will affect the damage. All we do know is how it interacts with Auto Attacks, and extrapolating behaviour further is risky at best. Which is why I am keen to have it tested, though I don't have a Beta key :(.

2:31 PM  

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