13 February, 2007

Blips and Blurps

Ghmou has some thread tips: he recommends that you visit this ridiculously comprehensive post on Paladin tanking. Popcorn-thread!

I'm aware of the lack of updates as of late, but it's due to plenty of things such as IRL business and full yadda yadda. All I know is that from running this blog for such a long time is that Paladin activity comes and goes in cycles. Right now we're probably in the middle of one: we're not really in the center of attention in any form of debate that's taking place (it's mainly focused on Druids) and we don't know of any updates or changes that we're going to get in 2.0.7, and so forth.

Oh wait, I know what I can talk about!

My guild took down the Curator this weekend and he dropped the Tier 4 gloves. I passed it for another Pally cause I already got a pair of epic gloves from the undead horse-rider whatsitsname, the first boss. Anyways, for you who don't know - you actually have the option to trade the gloves in between three different sets: healing, tanking and damage.

My experience so far of Karazhan is that it requires you to be relatively raiding experienced, very focused and concentrated on your specific role, geared up properly and importantly min-maxed depending on your class role. I mean...I'd really like to hear of any Paladin that has tanked the Curator. A lot of these boss fights require a ton of HP on the tanks, and we're the tank class with the least amount of HP. If you're Prot and stuck healing on fights, why take the pieces to aid your tanking when you obviously get stuck in the back healing in Karazhan anyway?

So my question - is the option for us to pick different set pieces with our sets a false option? Thoughts?

25 Comments:

Blogger Alex said...

Did you really think blizzard would change it?

5:19 AM  
Blogger Micah said...

Well, it was my HOPE that Blizzard wouldn't just keep the same old system running.

Sure, we can tank 5 player instances all we want, but if we can't go beyond it, are we really tanks at all? It isn't as though the game stops at 70 - that's when it really starts, in a sense.

If we can't choose our own role at 70, when we're experiencing end-game content, then what is the point of providing three sets?

Yes, it might be a smokescreen.

I get this sick feeling that Paladins will be quite capable of tanking Karazhan - if they have Karazhan gear. That's quite ridiculous sounding, but it seems like the kind of oversight that Blizzard would make.

Add to this the fact that a Paladin who wants to have any real chance of main tanking will have no real versatility or potency outside of a tanking role - unlike Feral Druids or *too a lesser extent* Protection Warriors.

The fact that Paladins have forego so much versatility in other areas in order to tank indicates to me that Blizzard expects only very few Protection Paladins to press on to tanking in Raid instances. There will always be better tanking options than a Paladin.

9:27 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

above is a reflection of the sad truth.

I'm only lvl64 (full prot spec)

As well as having to take all the Paladin's can't Tank comments. I'll get to level 70 & find it's all true.

Blizzard sold us another line & yet again we fell for it.

10:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

At least the first 6-8 bosses in Karazhan were tanked by a paladin in beta, maybe more. There is a video from the perspective of a Draenei Elemental Shaman. You can find it on google video or youtube.

The only real limitation to paladin tanking is the players attitude and determination. You think you can't do it, you won't.

2:37 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

who wants to tank raid instances anyways? let the warriors do it.

I'm 42/0/19 and can main heal or main-tank any 5-man instance.. that's versatility.

5% dmg reduction, 425 def, 13% parry, 11% dodge, 13% block..

or

+950 healing. Yeah I still wear 5/8 judgement when healing so its a tad gimped. I'll replace them once i get my pvp boots.

5:12 PM  
Blogger Micah said...

I for one would love to be the MT.

I know I'll probably never get to be MT simply because my Guild Leader is a Warrior, even though he never MTs.

We also have some Feral Druids with sick gear, more hit points, more armor, and equivalent avoidance (druid dodge = paladin dodge + parry).

I'm the only Paladin in my guild that has specced Protection. The rest are all Holy or Ret. They used to be mostly Ret, but of late many of them are realizing that they just don't have the gear to make a compelling argument for them remaining ret spec when we start raiding again.

I mean, I have about 8.7k hp/5200 mp unbuffed, 9.8k armor, 460 defense, 150 spelldamage in my tanking gear. I've been trying, but I doubt I'll ever get the chance...

... and the worst part is, if I ever DO get the chance, and we wipe, I'll never get another chance. Sure, if a Warrior is tanking and we wipe, it's the healer's fault. If a Paladin is tanking and we wipe, it's the Paladin's fault.

Know what I mean?

5:41 PM  
Anonymous Breyn said...

Maybe we will, maybe we won't. I'm the leader of my guild, and a die-hard tankadin, so I'll try to come back with my thoughts when we start doing karazan (should be soon, just need a few more people keyed).

In my tanking gear, unbuffed, I have 10.4k HP, 493 defense, and 13k armor. And I'm 31holy/30 prot (determined it's better at least for the 5 mans we're running now).

And I know I can push that higher with some better blues. I'm probably going to make myself a Felsteel helm, and maybe gloves as well. Keeping my Timewarden's leggings though. Just need to replace the green gems with blue ones for another 50HP or so.

As a tanking paladin, I'm working on block rate. With Holy Shield, Redoubt, and Dabiri's Enigma, I can do a 100% block rate (when I respec for Holy shield). I want to pick up the figurine of the Collosus from Shattered halls as well.

I'll lack the 1.3k HP from a prot warrior, but I'll make up for it with a better block rate over time (BRPS?)

7:04 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I mt'd a full kharazan raid including prince malchazaar and curator, Im sporting 504 defence atm with roughly 20 20 20 parry dodge block, when I first tanked curator my gear was a bit worse, same defence level but less hp and armour, we 1shot him the first time I tanked and I was never really in danger of dying, tanking prince was a different matter tho, I had to pot up to the eyeballs (but so did our warrior tank in the other raid we run), also I found out that you can not dodge/parry/block during the global cd after you cast exorcism and cleanse (possibly consecrate), this seriously needs to get fixed!

Enbee - Outland (EU)

11:06 PM  
Blogger Vaelin said...

Sounds more like a guild problem than a class problem in general. Find a better guild that is more open minded about Paladin tanking, or start one yourself. Call it Vengeance or something cool like that. Your Warrior GM is probably just sore he's not alone at the top of the tanking food chain anymore.

8:47 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

i owuld never bother getting the healer-t4 set, it's totally crap. you get comparable blues from the 5-mans or lvl 70 quests as well as better drops from karazhan itself.
If you get your hands on a t4-piece get the tank-set or the dmg-set, but don't waste it on the shitty healer-set

2:53 PM  
Blogger Carmen said...

I've been the primary off-tank in Kharazan so far, and honestly I have not had a problem holding aggro or taking hits, in fact I take less damage then our Protection Spec warrior.

How? I am using primarily warrior tanking gear with a few pieces of paladin gear here and there to give me some spell damage, and supplmenting my gear with stamina and spell damage enchants.

I haven't had any trouble filling the OT role.

I have 13000 HP fully buffed and 500 defense, with about 150 spell damage.

5:21 PM  
Anonymous snow said...

What I find frustrating is that there is currently a thread with CM attention about this on the Euro Paladin Boards:

http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=152725439&sid=1&pageNo=2

Yet no paladins in that thread are "pushing the agenda," so to speak. They're going on about tanking 5 mans when we need to be getting buffs (chiefly, HP buffs) to compete with the viability of feral druids. As someone else put it, blizzard seems to have accomplished the goal of warriors being the best overall tanks, bears being good backup and excellent in dealing with hard hitting mobs, and paladins in aoe tanking. But our niche is too small and the amount with which we fall behind out of our niche is too great.

12:54 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm a member of the EU community and would very well be willing to make the post for Snow, recently I have been going through an issue in my guild which has caused me a great deal of anger.

From 60 to 70 I leveled completely as prot, got all the gear and was having a great time. It feels as though prot has more interaction. However I spoke to the guildmaster asking him what he feels my role should be. It went something like this:

"We already have a tankadin, so we don't need you to tank. We already have 2 godly healadins, so we don't need you to heal. Whats ret like? I hear it isn't really that needed."

I then went and had a discussion with an officer and he managed to sort so that in a 25man raid I defienetly have a raiding spot as a healer. Thing that irritates me is that I don't get a chance to tank at all unless I am only doing 5 man instances.

On a further note our guild was getting stuck on curator for a bit until one day they managed to catch one of our feral druids while he was online and asked him to tank. They done it in one shot.

I see a lot of posts both on US and EU boards of paladins saying they are having a blast and have no issues at all, just wish it was the same for most people.

- Reeve

8:25 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I am both GM and a warrior (tank). we are doing karazhan atm, and i have a prot specked paladin in my guild. he is offtanking mobs and doing a grate jobb. So well that he can hold hes agro while the mages ripps in to the mobs. So i would say that a paladin as offtank is a good choise in an instance where the numbers of attendents are few (10man). And i love the buffs from prot. So for all you paladins wondering if you will ever get to tank any thing if you go prot. my opinion is clear you shoud. you can hold agro, you can get some nice Deff/parry/doge, not so mutch block as a warrior butt not far off. So in the end go for it. Your guild will soon see that you are usefull. And before any stupid comens like ohh yea you dident evan clear MC... We have cleared Naxx up to Sapphiron, AQ40 on farm. So we have all the experience needed!

Good Luck to all paladins out there.

6:30 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hahaha LMAO
Pallies on the Top of the Tank Chain..... Good one....

I'm a Tank Warrior Myself. And have about 80 Day's playtime
we had AQ40 on Farm status and were nearly done when TBC Came out.

I think one small thing when i hear the words "Pally" and "Tanking"

Warrior are specialised in iether Tanking or DPS.

Pallies are versatile and so they
can never be the best in anything.

I repect pallies ofc. They can do good DPS , Good Healing and can Off-tank adds good. But they thats it. They are not a class made to specialise in something with.

"Give a Pally Warrior Gear"
Surething. I think its a waste of Gear personally. And the Pally tank sets..... Nice if people want them ofc. And i won't say not to take them. I would say: Why?
You have warriors to tank? Why would you want to do it? To prove you can? Wel YES pallies are good tanks. I just think it Unnecesary.

Cause i know for sure that in the end Warriors will tank Bosses in raids UNLESS a compleet Guilds wants to take in account that a Pallies tanks and adjust accordingly to it. Yes soon they're will be stories how well a famous pally tanked this and that.
But thats not only the work of that one pally. A guild changed for it. And thats unecesary.

If Pallies ever become MT's o'n m server , i'l Reroll to annother class. Then Warriors are utterly:

"Useless"

(( Yeah sure , we can DPS. But who wants a Warrior DPS if you can have a Mage , Lock , Hunter or Rogue ))

6:39 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I just find it sad that as ever ,
the Pallies and Warriors are at it again. Again its a fight about something. Now its whom gets to be MT. Comon people! Its a game! DO it if you feel happy about it!

First it was:
Warrior: Pallies need my Warrior Gear!
Pally: What? It has no name on it.

Now its:
Warrior:I wanna Tank!
Pally: No I wanna!

What will it be best?

Paly: I'l DPS.
Warrior: No Way , you tank. I'l DPS

Or when Blirras makes a spin of of AQ40 :S

Warrior: Need on Healing Pants
Pally: Stay off my Pants!

6:48 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Pallies Just Suck. Warrior FTW

6:50 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I've recently come in contact with a 5-man party that had a Paladin whose head was so far up hs rear, he could pop his bubble using /whistle.

Paladins are viable tanks, but are the tanks with the least HP. This is because they're Priest/Warrior, not the other way around. They should realise that.

2:30 PM  
Anonymous malcite said...

Although im not suggesting that we do (speaking from a paladin point of view) Paladins are capable of tanking in major raids (i have myself done tanking on several encounters in Mc) but the reason i do not suggest it is because paladins have a much harder time keeping aggro even with salvation on everyone else and Righteous Fury active.
casters, rogues and warriors are natural aggro makers while paladins are not at the same extent. We are selfmade "torturemasters" as i like to say. We are made for slow dps with good time to heal and capability to survive lengthy solo battles without major issues. Its like many videos representations of a paladin fights: goes on all day and all night with no end, except it has an end against bosses ;)

9:29 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Just want to say that with the right gear and right specc it's possible to be a great tank. I bet u heard bout Druids that are better tanks then warriors? Cus we got one of those in our guild, anyway, with right gear and so on... don't forget u can be what u want to be!

And if u want to be a imba tank, just specc right and get some nice gear to raise the stats... and tank!

We're still talking bout it in the guild, but since there are druids better tankers then warriors, then they should give pally's a chance too.

And I got faith in "PALLY AS TANK".

11:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yeah give pallys range spells, more armor, and make them invencible! ffs! Pallys cant be the best in everything!
If u wanna tank, make a warrior, if u wanna dps, make a Lock, Mage..
but if u want to have Plate and heal, carry with the pally!

5:55 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

shadow priest view on druids:

all those poor mindless balance druids... too proud of their crits and have not even tried being feral... i have lost to one druid, and he was feral, that says it about them :p

7:34 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Im a raiding shadow priest, my dps is among the tops, always. i feel like im progressing well together with my guild and got a good raiding experience. what ive noticed about these paladins that want to go dps in the raids is that they always come in last on the dmg list...

my point is anyways: i like you better healing :) its for the good of the lot ;)

7:41 PM  
Blogger jurgen said...

I'm in a guild where we have virtually no warriors and and overflow of Druids and Pala's. Through this strange situation we have developed Tankadins who can easily outtank any Feral Druid or Warrior. Myself being a full Balance druid (*blush*) I have been saved on way too many occasions by a Tankadin, rather than the Warrior or other Druids.

It's just what you are used to doing. If you do tanking a lot, you will have uber Tankadins

Thorondor

12:54 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think the issue that many people are getting away from, is that it's not the class it's the person behind the keyboard.

Personally I am a GM and MT of a guild that is running Karazhan, and I do play a warrior. However I am also leveling a BE Paladin to take over as MT/OT with the current OT (warrior) splitting the roles as well.

What people have to realize is that it's not a situation of "Oh this class is better than this class" it's a simple situational occurence.

In the past, the warriors were the kings of tanking, no dispute there, but now with the implementation of new specs for Paladins, Warriors, AND Druids I think it makes for great encounters. Personally I have MTd all of MC, BWL, AQ 20, AQ 40, and all of NAXX. I have full tier 3, and over 90 days played on my warrior with a 99% raid attendance. Let me tell you something, from a main tanks perspective it's very, very, very draining. Personally I love the fact that I can sit a fight or two out now.

In closing, read the blue posts, Tserec specifically said "We are developing encounters in the end game 25 man instances that will have phase like transitions similar to Nef / Ony to where in certain phases the boss will be immune to one tanks abilities (warrior for instance) and highly vulnerable to anothers (druid/pallie) and vice-verse."

Now with info like that, if people continue to have the close minded opinions they currently do, good luck in end-game.

~Mili

10:45 PM  

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