13 March, 2006

Paladin Review Redux

Looks like patch 1.12 is going to be like "1.9" 2:
...This is but one patch [regarding the Paladin changes in 1.10], and I've already stated we're looking to make the Protection tree more appealing. Improvements to the Retribution tree are a possibility as well.

...I plan to discuss a number of items with the class designers at some point this coming week, and hopefully I'll have some feedback to provide concerning the direction of patch 1.12 as it pertains to the Paladin.
- Looks like our second revision is planned on to be shared in the the same patch as the Shamans 1.12? The irony.
- Possible Retribution improvements? Sounds good as needs more versatility beyond Repentance.
- Cool that Eyonix is going to chat with the class designers soon, hopefully we'll get some tidbits from what came out of that.

Edit: Shaman complains about this so Eyonix responds.


Anonymous Thoma said...

Future Improvements to the protection tree:

Holy Shield moved to 33 talent points and is back to not getting any +spell damage

Toughness now gives 1% per point rather then 2%.

Retribution improvements:

SoC now procs on every hit but does the same amount of damage as SoR and judgement does the exact same damage.

Vindication now no longer works on players.

Comments from Player Designers:

"You guys are uber and if you can't figure out how we made you gods then you don't deserve to play our game. "

Can you tell that I have high hopes for the next review?

7:42 PM  
Blogger Brian said...

I can't help but wonder if this is a subtle admission that they screwed up?

4:40 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Don't get your hopes up. The designers have been making incremental, almost meaningless "improvements" for months now and the paladin class is still nothing compared to all other classes in regards to functionality and effectiveness. For Christ's sake, the awful and klunky seal and judgement system is still in place. I really think that players should wise up and abandon this class all together, because it isn't worth any gamer's time to try to make the best of it - and waiting does nothing but waste your money.

- Hay

5:39 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Which patch does the huge undead instance come into play? Is that 1.12? It wouldn't surprise me to see the character with undead abilities get "reviewed" in the undead instance patch...

Plus it would fit with Blizzard's established mode of dealing with reviewing the paladin class- stick it in with an enormous content patch so the "changes" can hopefully get lost in the shuffle and the developers can look like they have an excuse for the half-hazard treatment of their review.

On the optimistic side... yeah it does kind of look like they realized they screwed up last time. I hope they take the kid gloves off next time and really get under the hood of the paladin instead of putting another layer of wax on to attempt to cover up the grime encrusted exterior.

5:49 PM  
Blogger Mastgrr said...

On the optimistic side... yeah it does kind of look like they realized they screwed up last time.

Yep, they definitely failed for Protection. In essence patch 1.9 was 2/3:rds of a talent review.

7:14 PM  
Blogger Thoma said...

The Seal and judgement system isn't bad. Seal of Light and Wisdom are very neat mechanics. SoR isn't the problem either. It's keeping SoC that is the problem. You have those Paladins that think we need a strike. And you have those who think we need more DPS. So take SoC and it's supposed 7 ppm... and allow us to hit it every 9 seconds or so for a controlled burst. And let the judgement of it be a full blast. Increasing it's power, giving us a strike, not changing an intresting mechanic and increasing our DPS and burst potential. It doesn't help reckoning bombs very much but I'm not sure they need it alot. (Or it could make it more scary. SoC powerup, reckoning bomb, JoC.)

But there are more issues for us. Counterspell. Tanking. The whole protection tree.

And the huge raid instance is set for 1.11. We don't know what kind of content 1.12 will have.

7:21 PM  
Blogger Brian said...

Yep, they definitely failed for Protection. In essence patch 1.9 was 2/3:rds of a talent review.

As a Retrinoob, I can assure you that the so-called "review" (or as I like to put it, the "dusting off") was not a 2/3rds talent review.

Essentially, the Retribution Tree was unchanged. I use the same spell in almost the same manner except I get to judge SoC for 300 points of damage every minute (I went 21 Holy/30 Retribution so I didn't get repentence). I still use SoC R1 during the fight with my Blackhand Doomsaw and pray for procs and crits.

Also, my entire combat system is gone if I'm counter spelled. My Warrior in defensive stance does as much damage as my Paladin. Still.

What they need to do is remove Divine Shield (keeping Divine Protection) and move it up to the top of the Protection tree and change it so it increases aggro.

They need to change all the Retribution talents to more melee abilities rather than spell abilities.

Holy Shield should be changed to act similar to Lightening Shield. The Protection tree also needs Improve SoR and Consecration to increase Holy Damage and gain aggro.

7:38 PM  
Blogger Thoma said...

Counterspell is an an issue and as long as we have only one spell school it always will be. It would be nice if our seals were made immune but I perfer to keep them as holy damage.

Divine Shield is a thorny problem but doing anything with it in the protection tree doesn't help our tanking at all. The cooldown is too long to be useful tanking in the core.

Retribution is mostly melee abilities. Eye for an Eye and Sanc Aura are really the only spell based abilites we have.

8:05 PM  
Blogger Brian said...

I disagree. Our retribution tree is almost completely spell abilities.

Proof? How many of our Retribution abilities are completely gone if we're counterspelled and/or purged?

No Seals, no Judgements, EfaE and Sanc aura gone,

All we got at that point is Vengence, Conviction, Two-Handed weapon specialization, and Vindication. Every other combat talent or skill is gone. All from a level 24 spell that costs 100 mana. Name any other class like that.

Retribution should have attacks that use mana but aren't spells in the traditional sense, like....strikes!

Oh, and this is Elderin - 60 Paladin from Whisperwind

10:38 PM  
Blogger Thoma said...

Ablities and the talent tree are differant things. The same problem you mention with the focus on Retribution tree affects all of our abilites. Counterspell takes away our ability to heal. Our ability to protect ourselves. The problem with counterspell has nothing to do with the retribution tree. We only have one school of magic and the ability to shut that down cripples us completely.
Making Seals into weapon buffs would help but that's not part of the talent tree.

11:02 PM  
Blogger Brian said...

I agree with you, but I was speaking purely of the Retribution tree. IMO, since the Paladin is suppose to be a mix of priest and warrior with an ephasis on warrior, the Paladin melee abilities and talents should be similar to the Warrior abilities and talents. Similarly, the Holy tree should be similar to the Holy Priest tree.

Essentially, the Paladin is completely countered by a level 24 spell that costs 100 mana. I can't believe that no one sees a problem with that.

12:14 AM  
Blogger Thoma said...

It's not just a retribution thing. Counterspell screws over all paladins. When you get to Shaz and are in full Healdin mode...you will see the screams counterspell causes for us. No DPS. No Heals. No nothing.

1:35 AM  
Blogger Mastgrr said...

What they need to do is remove Divine Shield (keeping Divine Protection) and move it up to the top of the Protection tree and change it so it increases aggro.

Divine Shield will never be changed or removed. It's essential to the class. It is also our only escape mechanism as 12 seconds is sufficient enough for us to escape from mobs in PVE (non-dungeon) content. I wish though the cooldown could be slightly lowered, like, 4:30-4:00 or something, just to make it possible for us to use it more often.

3:45 AM  
Blogger Thoma said...

It's not DS that keeps us down. It's our blessings.

4:40 AM  
Blogger Brian said...


First, I so rarely use DS, I'm not sure where it is on my hotbar. I use DI a whole lot more even with the 1 hour cool down.

Second, if they fix the class, DS wouldn't be necessary at all.

I believe the DS does hurt us. Other players use it as an excuse to keep the Paladins from getting any DPS ("You have 3 lives!").

3:07 PM  
Blogger Thoma said...

I think that those players who didn't start with Paladins as thier mains but rolled one just so they could say they are an invincable healbot, the ones who say the class is fine, you just need to stand in the back and press one button over and over again and that's great gameplay...those people hurt us more then any 10 horde whining about how long we take to kill. DS gives us an advantage but it's not much differant then Iceblock or Psyhic Scream as a defense.

5:44 PM  
Blogger Mastgrr said...

I agree to a certain extent that the use for the DS can seem limited. I've however begun to use it offensively in the last few weeks and I find it a lot of fun!

7:04 PM  
Blogger Thoma said...

Do you mind clarifing "use it offensively"?

7:29 PM  
Blogger Mastgrr said...

Instead of just using it to pause things to heal yourself, you use it ahead of time when you know that you'll be feared or when you just charge in to enemies, or for example at a boss when it's just a couple of percent left of it's HP.

8:19 PM  
Blogger Thoma said...

I've found Unyielding Faith tends to be fairly nice for that use in PVP and of course the pvp trinket. Our second to last Mags fight I managed to resist 10 out of 12 fears and cleared one with the trinket. Of course our last fight I didn't resist any.

8:42 PM  
Blogger Lord Vir said...

DS on offense is a lot better since 1.9. You can actually put out some offense from behind it. Still, I'd give it up for some real melee abilities, or I wouldn't mind it sharing a cooldown with some offensive ability that would increase dps.

10:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Reckoning = Retribution skill

I will die a happy paladin. It makes sense. The warrior fury ability "enrage" works on the same idea.

9:48 PM  

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