06 April, 2007

Eating the Cake and Keeping it

I love it when Priests refer themselves to as primary healer in an effort of trying to make sure that there is only one best healing class in the game - themselves, that is. It's ironic that when talking about Shadow tree power they're suddenly Healing/DPS hybrid, but when talking about healing, voilà, they're back to being in the Holy Trinity.

Much like tanking, healing is something that should not be left to one sole class.
And as if that wasn't interesting enough, later in the thread, paladin Nidhogg of D&T posts, and actually lays out just what every class' role is in their raids. There's some surprises:

Our paladins heal
Our priests DPS
I love using that list as an argument of trying to nerf Paladin healing, conviniently leaving out the other two from the list, which is:
Our druids heal
Our shamans heal

If you couldn't tell the sarcasm, the answer is pretty obvious: Shadow Priests give SUPERIOR support in form of both extremely good DPS and mana plus mana regen. Using Nihilum's list is an incredibly bad argument.
“Flash of Light is one of the most mana-efficient heals in World of Warcraft, and that efficiency increases even more when used on a target with Blessing of Light.” If paladins are going to have the highest survability in the game, they should not also be able to put out the best healing.
Flash of Light is also the slowest healing ability in the game. It heals for the least amount in the game. Nerfing Flash of Light is extremely stupid because it'll make it worthless and as of right now it's less powerful than it used to be due to the much higher stamina values and much stronger burst damage from bosses. It's ironic that they think it is the basis of our overpoweredness when in reality it lost its power from Vanilla to TBC.
It is ridiculous that spamming the most mana-efficient healing spell in the game is more than enough for a paladin to keep any of their teammates up.
In heroics? In raids? In PVP? Lawl.
Paladins simply have too many group utility spells for a single class. They can cleanse dots off their teammates.
...which was nerfed in TBC. Pretty much any Paladin who does PVP knows what I am talking about here. Cleanse these days in PVP is borderline useless. Cleanse fights in PVE a la Chromaggus don't exist in TBC anymore.
They can cast Blessing of Freedom to make teammates immune to snares. They can cast Blessing of Sacrifice to free people from sap. They can cast Blessing of Freedom to make teammates immune to snares.
Blessing of Freedom is good, yeah. But Priests and Shamans can dispel it with ease. Its use is very limited, but I admit very good.
They can cast Blessing of Sacrifice to free people from sap.
I laughed out loud. It's: we can't be sapped with Blessing of Sacrifice on someone else, we can get people out from sap with Blessing of Protection (cooldown ability, makes them unable to do physical attacks).
They can cleanse all the crowd control put on their teammates.
As far as I know, Priests can dispel Polymorph, Frost Trap, Seduce, etc. Pretty much the only thing we can dispel which they can't is Sap, and it's not really dispelling at all, but a creative use of game mechanics.

Of course the list leaves out the powerful Priest abilities, such as Powerword: Shield which is not only basically an instant heal but can also do damage back to the attacker. Fortitude is a pretty damn good buff since improved it adds around 1k extra health. Improved Divine Spirit is damn good and all casters love it. Spirit of Redemption allows them to heal for free when they're dead! Mass Dispel allows them to dispel debuffs and dispel buffs all at the same time within a targeted area. Renew allows you to heal people efficiently over time. Holy Nova, Prayer of Healing and Prayer of Mending is superior AoE healing.

I just find it sickening that Priests are focusing on nerfing Holy Paladins when it's obvious that the case is Shadow Priests need a nerf. They're a better viable hybrid than us - a hybrid class! I find it even more sickening that our own Paladin community is drinking the kool-aid, caving in and basically out-right supporting the Priest cause by eating our own (not realizing of course that they will achieve nothing).

I happen to believe that Holy Paladins are very balanced, and that our "superiority" is extremely overblown. I consider myself to have pretty decent gear and I tend to run out of mana on fights such as Kargath Bladefist and Shade of Aran. It is going to be really interesting to read the upcoming notes of the big content patch and see which side Blizzard agrees with (edit: I forgot; Holy Priests are getting a buff. Hopefully this means no nerf for us).


Anonymous Leord said...

If they side with any, they will side whith whomevers side that wants the most nerfs on any class (and especially hybrid classes if possible).

2:24 AM  
Anonymous Holydin said...

Well paladin is overpowered when come to healing. As stated by blizzard Priests and Druids are the primary healers.

So Nerf Paladin Holy specc.
Nerf Priest Shadow specc.
Nerf Druid feral specc.

Our description state secondary healers so we should receive a nerf in that area.

3:29 AM  
Blogger Mastgrr said...

The primary healer notion is dead.

4:04 AM  
Blogger Vaelin said...

The melee class once known as the Paladin is dead.

5:10 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The melee class once known as the paladin is still alive and well, just not in WoW. There the cleric lives quite happily, wondering what their cousins with the two handers are so upset about.

6:32 AM  
Blogger Chris said...

There's a good amount of priests out there that feel that they are a hybrid class now, as evidenced by some of the priests posting in the thread you linked at the start of this post.
I find this pretty funny, considering that there are far more *trainable* healing skills than damage dealing skills for priests.
The fact that they can deal damage and provide utility if specced in the Shadow tree doesn't make them a hybrid class, since their primary skill set is tuned to healing and keeping people alive (stam buff, HoTs, group heals, shields, several different strength heals, etc).
All your spec tree ever does is make you excel in the particular area you've invested points in (hence, SPECialization).

I can't believe that so many priests are bitching when they are, in fact, more desirable than ever.

6:43 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

ahhh there is imbalance in the world of warcraft, in order to fix it we will nerf paladins.

Huh? What do you mean that it had nothing to do with em. Oh well we will just leave the nerfs out of the patch notes, they won't notice!

I look foward to seeing an interesting response here.

7:29 AM  
Blogger Lorath (EU Bloodhoof) said...

I found the win quote early in the thread, here it is: "Firstly, calling for nerfs is stupid, so go diaf." I lol'd :)

To be perfectly honest, what secret megabuffs did we recieve in BC that make us so super-imba healers? Afaik we only got one - namely the Shadow Priest. Take away that "buff" and we are back at the pre-BC spam-FoL-until-oom crap we enjoyed in MC, AQ, BWL, Naxx etc etc.

About Nihilum taking 1 Holy Priest vs 3 Holy Paladins... I can only say, the game is not about healing 40 ppl at the same time anymore, and when it comes down to spamming heals on 1-2 tanks... surprise surprise, shadowpriest-buffed Palas is the smarter choice.

But what kind of conclusions can we really draw from the extreme min-maxing guilds? My own guild is semi-casual, we will take any healers we have available for the raids. We won't tell a holy priest to go suck it because we want a holy pala to take his spot... and I hope we never reach that level where 0.1% difference in some area will decide these things for us.

Nerfing our only good tree will solve nothing. Playing the 'nerf-this-n-that-plzkthxbai' game is beyond stupid. It's about damn time holy priests get buffed, if anything, their utility as non-healers could be toned down a notch... but nerfing holy paladins would serve no purpose for 99% of the guilds out there.

11:32 AM  
Anonymous Leord said...

IMO it seems rather easy (at least on the healing/utility regarding the aforementioned classes).

- Buff Priest healing (just slightly, they ARE allready better!)
- Nerf Shadow Priests utility and DPS somewhat (in total opposite of paladins original class description, it IS possible to get priests their original wishes).
- Fix the itemization and tweak prot palas just a bit.
- Fix the itemization A LOT and buff Ret A LOT (but only in giving some really good utility, if a DPS pala is such an atrocity...).

I agree with above said, there is no use nerfing the one tree that actually is balanced. What, you dont want to go on a raid at all?

Well, this or perhaps make ret/prot palas take up "half a raid slot" as previously suggested ;)

12:51 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think they should make paladins completely useless so that they realized they completely f***ed up the class.

1:17 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I find it hilarious that so many of the raving hysterical lunatics that have in the past, screamed for Paladin nerfs are now harping about Shadow Priests. Shadow Priests simply have some of the best itemization in game at the moment, because everything they do scales with one stat: Spell Damage. Look at the armory, and see what Shadow Priests in top end game raiding guilds are wearing. You see almost the exact same gear on all of them. The issue is that Shadow Priest utility is solely based on DPS, so they maximize DPS. There is nothing overpowered about that, and all DPS classes should seek to maximize DPS.

Nothing is wrong with a Holy Priest's ability to heal. Holy priests are crying because they can't do the most HPS any more, but they completely forget that they are the most versatile healer. "Priests need to spend at least 20 points in 2 different trees to be effective healers where every other healing class only has to put points in one tree" and "Priests are glass canon healers" are other arguments that Priests are throwing around. Both of these argiments are valid, but can not be fixed without a complete revamp of two separate talent trees (sound familiar Paladins?)

Holy Paladins are actually balanced correctly and should never see a nerf from the current state.

There is no issues with Paladin tanking in 5 man content (heroics included.) Well geared Paladins are actually better tanks than similarly geared warriors in the DPS races that 5 man content has become. 10+ man content is where Paladins have difficulty tanking, because they have the lowest HP, and have issues with sustaining high threat due to mana dependancy. There is no real way to fix this problem without completely rethinking how a paladin generates/sustains threat.

Retribution (ahh the bastard tree that everyone wished worked as intended) PVP, Stunlocking and bursting 9k damage on cloth in 8 seconds is borderline broken. PVE, Stun resisted, 4.5k damage (stupid armor)in 8 seconds, twiddle thumbs and wait on cooldowns and take up melee space, eat cleaves and drain healers mana...Looks like things are fine for PVP, and an absolute mess for PVE, and this spec brings nothing that a Holy or Prot spec doesn't to a raid. Solutions? More DPS, not likely. More utility, not likely because of how much Paladins bring allready. No hope here.

Can you tell that I play both a formerly Holy Disc, now Shadow Priest and a formerly Ret then Prot, now Holy Paladin? I enjoy playing whatever spec works best at the moment, until Blizz swings the nerf bat at my head again :)

Orginally the posters here were completely opposed to nerfs of any kind wonder where they went...

2:40 PM  
Blogger Mastgrr said...

Leord's bullet-points how to fix the issues summarized it perfectly.

5:42 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If they take away any paladin power it will be a SLAP IN THE FACE and and OUTRAGE!

5:45 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

(I have played both priest and paladin since 2005).

I think TBC in general is fairly broken. Or more closly, I think WoW classes are broken. There is no logic to the classes at all anymore. You have some classes with trees built for raiding vs. pvp.. then some built with the idea of healer vs. dps.

The problem with the classes is that they are defining what the roles in WoW are differently for each class. If you keep moving this definition, how can you balance things when every class is built towards different goals of balance?

It's sort of like too much development went into post-game. Too many "little changes" made everything kind of messed up.

Like the Holy Paladin, I don't think the Shadow Priest is inbalanced. The problem i actually have is with talent trees in general.

The problem is that each tree ends up focusing you in either raid-type roles or pvp-type roles. Going up one tree tends to make you worse/useless in one of these roles. (Except maybe dps only classes? Which must be nice). This really makes for a crappy time utilizing all aspects of the game. This is because the talent tree system is broken. All specs should be viable for both areas. The problem is that each tree is like half of a full class. You can never have a full class because you have to specialize in half of one.

I guess my final thoughts on WoW is that the talent tree system is an overall failure. In its attempt allow players to create unique characters it is broken down into "builds". But each build gimps you in one major aspect of the game. To me, that makes no sense. I think the trees should only allow you to differentiate your character with skills/enhancements/tools not make you only useful in one aspect of the game. Talents would've been way more awesoem if you could pick from any tree each time you level (perhaps more like a talent pool) so you could pick up seal of command and then redoubt then divine illumination, but at the cost of x, y, z skills. The irony of a hybrid class like paladins is that they aren't really hybrid because speccign in a tree makes them unusable in their other roles.

6:26 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The game is broken if you try to look at it in terms of traditional class roles. The classes have evolved into different things (especially via builds) than they are traditionally intended for.


6:50 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It will at least be interesting to see how Blizzard responds to this with their next MMO. In theory, it will fix some of the issues that didn't make WoW work that well.

To me WoW development is "done". The game is what it is--flaws and all. I don't see the game getting much better or worse.. no more significant changes. The game has matured. TBC was essentially a refiend version of the original WoW. They super-sized the rep grinding, while making it more rewarding; they finally implmented the Arena combat (but deciding to scrap Siege combat which had been somewhat of a promise way back at the beginning of the game. It is WARcraft after all.), They tweaked the classes in a way to give them some raid viability, and they reduced the raid count to allow for smaller guild raiding. Oh and added some races.

About the only thing left for them to do is add a couple new classes, or possibly heroic classes. Maybe housing, to be your next "mount purchase". This is probably the next expansion- then that's basically it. You can add new content via patches. But they may still sell you new content via expansions.

I'm just wondering what they have in store to bring me back to their game. It's all sort of lost its novelty now, kind of the same old, same old.

7:34 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Even if they nerf holy healing it will still involve pushing one button 40 times a minute, with enough +healing FoL does make up for its low base, as Awake in Nihilum proves.
Strange thing is this class is supposed to be a primary melee class with backup healing, me thinks false advertising.

9:57 PM  
Blogger brian.holinka said...

Does Ret fair well in PvP? I've just been healing there too as it seems to get me the most HKs

12:13 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I want to see Holy stay exactly as it is, it's perfect. Paladins are the best single target healers while priests excel in their group healing.

However as a Tankadin I really want to see us buffed to being on equal grounds with warriors. I don't care if warriors can't solo level as prot, that is their choice to go that spec.

1:05 AM  
Blogger ezrael said...

Power World: Shield doesn't damage anyone. And in fact it's a bad ability to use when main healing a warrior tank until he's gotten some rage, as it absorbs damage entirely.

You're pretty much a good example of why your site is well named. The fact is, priests need a significant buff so that they are, in fact, better healers than you. They SHOULD be better healers than you. And no, I don't play a priest, I play primarily warriors. I knew it sucked when you usurped some of OUR role, and I know it sucks when you stole THEIRS, too. The day people are bringing shadow priests and fury warriors to PuG's is the day I will accept paladins being tanks, healers and PvP DPSers.

6:45 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Just for the above poster who is a complete moron....PW:Shield DOES NOT block rage generation. I thought we figured that out 2.5 years ago.

8:28 PM  
Anonymous Sandrine said...

I, a 41/20/0 Paladin on Crushridge, have been holy my entire lifespan as my paladin. I was around when the terms RETnoob, RETardadin and Retadin came about.

In all honesty, I have never been too fascinated by the retribution tree. It has so many meaningless talents like Eye for an Eye (returns 30% of spell crits back to the caster, but does not exceed 50% of your health and Deflection (parry). Here is an example:

Fighting a mage, your down to 1000 health and he crits you for 3000, you'd think that would hit for 1500 back to the caster, but since you have only 1000 health left, it only returns 500 damage. What a waste.

Deflection (parry), why the hell is this in the ret tree, it sounds more like a defensive skill. PUT THIS IN PROTECTION!!!

Another worthless skill is Seal of Command. You might as well move Seal of Righteousness over it and just get rid of Seal of Command altogether, as you have to have the target stunned to do more damage then judgement of righteousness. This wastes the ret and holy talent trees.

By far the most worthless talents are Sanctity Aura, and Improved Sanctity Aura. If you have specced into this, you pretty much forfeit your ability to heal, nullifying the +6% healing to all party members, not to mention the holy damage increase on this is a freakin joke. 10%? so my judgements can do an extra 50-150 dmg, so my crusader strike can do an extra 100-200 dmg. Throw us a bone blizzard, some with meat on it for crying out loud.

And Divine purpose, which decrease all physical (melee and ranged) crits by 10%, how is this not defensive? PUT IT IN PROTECTION!!! STOP GETTING THIS MIXED UP!!!

Repentance is just a crappy version of hammer of justice. 6 second stun, so we can what, sit there and do a very crappy heal??? We can't deal damage because it will knock the stun clear off.

The Crusade talent is just a waste of 3 talent points, +3% damage to humanoids demons undead and elementals. OOO a leet 10 - 30+ damage. What a joke.

Pursuit of Justice (+8% speed) is decent, although it does not stack with crusader, and honestly you'll be chasing an enemy for at least 1 min before you catch them, and when you catch them, what can you do to keep them from running away again? Nothing. You've used your stun to make them stop. 30 second - 1 min cooldown.

Now to the protection tree. Which fortunately is not as bad as ret.

Spell Warding, decreases all spell damage by 4%... Now lemme see, so 4% of a 5k pyroblast is 200, so now I take 4800 damage, what a HUGE difference. I've seen mages crit for 7k-8k on pyroblasts, yet they remain unnerfed. and with a 7k pyroblast, it's still nothing deducted from it (only 280). Take it all in, its just a giant waste.

Now on to the Holy tree, yes it can use some work.

Aura Mastery (40 yrd aura range)... so I can spec into this or, I could just get gear that gives this talent to me. Waste of a talent.

Purifying Power, reduces mana cost of cleanse and consecration by 10% and increase the crit strike chance of your exorcism and holy wrath by 20%. So now I can use consecration 1 more time in battle and clease is a joke too. And the abilities exorcism and holy wrath can only be used on undead, yet "UNDEAD humanoids dont count because they are special undead" directly from a GM! So now we are even more worthless in pvp. If its undead we should be able to use these against them.

Now on to the paladin class itself, the paladins trainable ablilities and moves.

Divine shield (12 second full bubble) and divine protection (8 second melee protection bubble). Using the same cooldown, why the hell is there still a divine protection around??? Of the 100 paladins I have talked to, only 2 use it. Thats an amazing 2%! With a 1 min forberance on pretty much anything useful, they should remove the cooldown link.

Avenging Wrath. for 20 seconds increases all damage by 30%. Now reading that, you might think OMG NERF NERF! Now listen to this, **it causes forberance** with a 3 min cooldown. So if you aren't going to kill someone with it, your most likely going to die due to lack of bubble. Blizzard needs to take off the forberance, but not allow it to be used during a bubble. Because paladins pretty much get forberance from anything and everything useful, which is a joke, just another slap in the face.

Concencration. The AoE for pallies. It was mildly buffed when they changed it to a learnable ability instead of speccing to get it. Yet rogues can avoid it simply and easily, and the mana cost for how much damage it lets out is just ridiculously high. casting this more then once in a battle says Im a retard paladin who likes to waste my mana in an attempt to knock a stealthed unit out of stealth.

Seal of justice, Judgement of Justice. For 30 seconds, has a chance to proc a 2 second stun. When judged, it prevents the target from running and reduces run speed. IMO this is just a dry meatless bone blizzard decided to throw out there to trick paladins into thinking they are useful. When judged in pvp, is does nothing yet states it does a movement slowing affect.Where is it then? When toggled as a seal, it rarely procs ever. Making a waste of a skill, mana, and the judgement.

Purify, with all the dots certain classes can do, decursing is a HUGE waste of mana as dots can stack beyond 10 and even 15 debuffs. Purify is a waste and just another worthless icon to look at while your dying. To improve it they need make it less mana.

Finally on to the paladin vrs different abilities and specced classes.

Stun lock rogues. There is nothing that can stop a crappy geared rogue from raping the best geared paladins, mind numbing and wound poisens, and the low cooldown on kick make paladins pretty much punching bags. When kicked, EVERYTHING goes into cooldown as all of our abilites are holy. And the one thing we are good at, that can get kicked very often, is healing, and since the mind numbing and wound poisens increase casting time and reduce amount healed, we will need to heal much more often.

Against a mage.
Blessing of freedom MY ASS! Dragons breath just bitch slaps that. Having a resistance aura on is a joke because mages can easily switch to fire/frost/arcane spells leaving your devotion, retibution, resistances aura worthless. Counterspell is another version of kick for mages. EVERYTHING goes into cooldown and paladins therefore shut down and should just lay in the fetal position until they come to grips with the reality that blizzard hates them.

As I read the description for paladins at the Create a character screen, I figure I should go to the blizzard forums and post it and say:
Blizzard, how can this description be true if our ret tree sucks and HOLY priests and RESTO druids want our HEALING abilities to be nerfed? Does that mean we really are secondary healers and main melee? Nope, so instead of false advertising, change the description or fix the talent trees to fit it.

11:47 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wow, you really are retarded if you think Sanctity Aura, SoC are worthless and Pursuit of Justice is good. SoC>SoR due to its ability to crit, which the ret true used to be based around. Also Sanctity aura is good for pretty much any build of a paladin has it ends up being a 7-8% increase in total DPS. Ask anybody in the game if they'd use a single talent point for that much of a DPS increase and they'd say yes. You obviously live in a box if you don't understand the usefulness of deflection as it completely resets your weapon timer causing your next attack much earlier then before, which is perfect when using a big slow 2h weapon.

It doesn't really matter as I've retired my paladin to the no funathon that has continued since BC came out.

Blizzard doesn't put in many "useless" talents now, I think they learned that with improved distract.

1:27 PM  
Blogger Lorath (EU Bloodhoof) said...

I lol'd at your post Sandrine, honest to God I laughed out loud. What are you saying in the post? Are you complaining about our class in PvP, or PvE, or praising it? You say "I, a 41/20/0 Paladin on Crushridge, have been holy my entire lifespan as my paladin" and then continue to trash the retrib tree which you admittedly know almost nothing about? Or did you praise it, I didn't quite get it.

Eye for an eye returns 30% dmg taken, and max 50% of your TOTAL hp. See what I did there? And nowadays it works even if the caster kills you. PvP talent. You trashed it, but was mistaken in the details.

Deflection should absolutely be in Prot, I couldn't agree more, but since 5% parry is a seriously good PvP talent against melee classes I can understand it. Blizzard have jumbled our trees up so we have defensive talents in all trees, sucks but that's the deal.

Seal of Command was always our lucky/unlucky love. With no reliable way to control the damage, we have the stunned dmg boost for a reason. We can (soon could) do great bursts and with 2 stuns, something worth fearing emerges from the Ret tree. We've screamed at Blizz to make it less luck-based since day one, yet our pleas remain unheeded. It's still the best Retadins have. Huge PvP burst potential (soon to be nerfed) and some utility as PvE dmg. I think you trashed it overall.

Sanctity Aura + Imp SA. If you spec into this, I'd say you know what you want, and what you give up. You role is not mainly healing if you spend lots of points in Ret, it's more of dmg, support and overall utility. +10% Holy dam? More dps for you, and any Holy priest that should dps (I'm not saying this happens alot tho) with the kicker; +6% healing for all party members. You know that healer in your party/raid? He just got a 6% efficiency buff. How can you possibly trash this? PvE/PvP goodness for your group.

I'd go on but I realize you're just spewing bullshit around you, picking on anything and everything. When you've respecced Holy/Ret/Prot and every combination you ever thought could be fun in between just for the sake of trying, and have spent 1000+ g on respecs then you may come back here and educate us on what sucks and why.
Apparently 2 stuns is useless in PvP even when our main dmg seal relies on stuns for big damage, and +13% damage is also useless, yes clearly your grasp of our complicated class is rock solid.

Sry bout the rant peeps!

8:08 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

<3 Lorath

8:47 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Judgement of Justice limits movement speed to 100%.

What this means is that any speed buffs your opponent puts on themselves from mounts to travel form to aspect of the pack are negated and they move at the normal run speed. So yes, it DOES do something very significant in PVP, namely WSG, but its also useful in plenty of other applications. You just have to be creative.

The good thing about this change was that they took a formerly completely useless PVP judgement and made it good for something.

Same thing goes for Judgement of Command. This used to be really stupid (they take some holy damage when stunned, and we have two stuns max on a minute cooldown typically), but since they changed it to do damage, yes, it does slightly less than JoR, but it can crit (based on melee crit, which most ret paladins will be stacking), and you don't have to re-seal to get something useful out of your judgement. Saves mana.

4:39 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Priests, in general, are not calling for the paladin class to be nerfed.

They are asking for their holy and disc trees to be fixed

5:03 AM  

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