04 April, 2007

Logical Fallacy

I agree with this post by Blackhalo on that Pallies who want a self-nerf should stop complaining. He goes through pretty much every single reason as to why the Holy tree is balanced and that the word of it being overpowered simply isn't the case.

To think that just because we're desired to heal in PVE and PVP Holy is overpowered is a completely mistaken conclusion. The truth is that it just means the other two trees suck ass.

That we are desired to heal in raids doesn't mean that Holy is overpowered. First of all, Protection Paladins aren't desired or viewed as highly versus Warriors or Feral Druids because of simple talent/balance/itemization issues. Once that is fixed, we're going to be both considered tanks and healers in PVE. Hopefully next patch.

That we are desired to heal in PVP doesn't mean that Holy is overpowered either. Tanking is completely out of the question in PVP. So in the end that means we've really only got one tree left.

The truth though is that Retribution will never be as useful as Holy or Protection. Ever. It's the tree that is not a part of the main focus of our class. If Blizzard are ever going to boost Ret Pallies for raiding I'd place my bet on that they focus more on utility than our damage. Ret DPS in raids will never be on the highly competitive scale. Utility however, can sometimes be good enough for damage output to be overlooked. I very much see them approaching Ret that way. I would love to see changes such as in an increase to 10% on Imp. Sanctity and 5% on Sanctified Crusader.

The last point Blackhalo makes is the best one:
Without the Holy tree with are left witha currently poor Retribution tree and a mediocre Protection tree...
A random idiot below makes the comment in response to it:
So we're on the same page here, you're calling the other trees worthless, but they shouldnt complain for holy nerfs because they feel it will buff the other trees? /boggle.
Congratulations on winning top score for most idiot reasoning of the day. Nerfing Holy won't buff the other two trees. It just won't. It's the stupidest argument I've ever heard.

I can't wait for Blizzard to nerf Shadow/buff Holy for Priests and buff Protection. Hopefully all this unnecessary bitching will die out.

18 Comments:

Blogger Vaelin said...

If I wanted to be brutally honest, I'd point out that even the most devastating nerf to the Holy tree wouldn't phase me in the least, seeing as how I spent levels 60-70 without a single point in Holy and was hoping to be able to keep it that way. In fact, I would probably grin a very evil grin and cackle maniacally if the Holy tree got nerfed. Overall, though, you're right on most points.

Holy doesn't need a nerf, and doing so would just make Paladins unappealing all-around for both PvE and PvP.

Prot needs its bugs worked out and better itemization. Raid encounters favoring or requiring a Paladin tank over a Warrior or Druid wouldn't hurt either.

Ret, as you said, won't be receiving any damage increases, but does need lots more utility. The suggestions you listed would be OK for PvE, but still wouldn't give arena teams a reason to recruit a Ret Paladin.

Back before 2.0 went live, PvP was the only real bastion of fun left for the Ret Paladin. The original PvP armor sets favored Ret, because Blizzard saw and understood this. Many Paladins who were PvPing heavily were doing so because they didn't want to stand around healing things, so they specced Ret and bashed things. What I think the tree needs is a lot more utility designed to encourage bashing things. I still thing Crusader Strike needs to factory heavily into this somehow. Simply buffing passive effects that don't require a Paladin to hit things more often than once every 20 seconds (if that) does jack squat for the fact that we now only have one option for PvP.

4:03 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Once that is fixed, we're going to be both considered tanks and healers in PVE. Hopefully next patch.

Good luck with that, you've been waiting to be considered a tank since launch. I'm not trying to flame here, it's just an observation.

Retribution could be as desirable as holy or protection without a significant dps increase if it included more combat options. There are plenty of things in pvp and melee that are potent, but do little to no damage. Examples are fear, deathcoil, sheep, counterspell, the mortal strike debuff, and warlock debuff, certain rogue poisions, etc.

The real weakness in paladin melee and retribution is a lack of combat options.

-Vir

5:03 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The idea is that Paladins heal so well what would it take to have a Protection or Retribution Paladin also be a desired spec?

It would take a lot seriously.

There are two things that make Holy Paladins overpowered.

#1 Extremely mana efficient heals.
#2 Divine Shield.

Both need a nerf. It would make Paladins on par with Priests in both PVE and PVP.

If Divine Shield got nerfed it would allow us to do things to the Paladin class that was limiting.

6:47 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

nerf holy

8:42 AM  
Anonymous Absolutist said...

Let me ask you something who are crying for a holy nerf.

First off if you are playing pally's: look around you FFS! All classes have at least two viable trees for raiding and most of the time 3 for solo PvE. Paladins have Two (actually one and a half) viable trees for soloing. A protection paladin wont do shit in dmg and it takes ages to kill mobs, not meant for solo pve.

A retri paladin does mediocre dmg but heals for shit so isn't needed in instances and raids.

A holy paladin is the ONLY paladin who is needed in both raids and can be viable voor solo PvE. I've specced protection @ 70 but Im having a very hard time being accepted as a tank. I take way too much dmg even though my gear consists of mostly blues.

Conclusion: the holy tree does NOT need a nerf! You guys are probably used to paladins who suck at everything well now finally we get to be good at ONE thing and you start begging for a nerf.

If you don't play paladins: look @ your own trees. For instance a rogue. What would you say if blizzard screwed your class over by nerfing assasination and subtelty so that combat remains the only tree thats viable? It would piss you off yeah. Welcome to the world of paladins we have been like this since launch.

Stop saying we need nerfing and start thinking. We are in no way overpowered and will probably never be.

9:09 AM  
Anonymous Suicidal Zebra said...

Anonymous #2 said:


There are two things that make Holy Paladins overpowered.

#1 Extremely mana efficient heals.
#2 Divine Shield.

Both need a nerf. It would make Paladins on par with Priests in both PVE and PVP.

If Divine Shield got nerfed it would allow us to do things to the Paladin class that was limiting.



----


Nuts, absolutely nuts. Both of these effects are class defining and have been for 12 months with this class, to nerf them is not only un-called for but also risks scrapping our raid and PvP viability both at a stroke.

Rather than nerfing mana efficiency for Paladins, why not buff all the other healing classes by making downranking have significantly less a penalty for healing spells than it does right now?

As for Divine Shield, and nerf to that at this time is a huge Arena nerf to all Paladins, a significant nerf in BG/World PvP (need we forget that without it we are the most vulnerable class to interruption on our heals that are worth a damn) and won't have much effect in PvE apart from removing an effective 'safe' aggro-dump. It is, fundamentally, a nerf across the board to all specs and thus unwarranted.


No, you nerf holy, heck you nerf the class to this extent, and raids will soon be wondering if they can get away with one or even zero Paladins in a raid, and radically rethinking the PvP roll (most likely rethinking it to the sidelines).

Lots of people think that the solution is quick and easy and involves the Paladin class only. It doesn't. To make off-specs more appealing in a 9-class raid you can't just make it 'relatively' more useful by nerfing the main spec because other classes would then be subbed in. You have to hold the main spec static, buff the main specs of the other classes (in this case, Priest/Druid/Shaman healing mana efficiency) and buff the off-spec to be competitive against all the other off-specs for classes which would normally compete in the role, through both talents (buffing Ret tree to be useful in a raid through utility) and itemisation (buffing Prot gear to gain 100% crushing avoidance without trading off stamina to the same extent as currently).

10:06 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

They should make redoubt a permanent block increase and bust it down to the second tier of protection. Maybe tune it back to 25% for the bonus. And make an improved stam talent for the spot at the top of the tree instead, so we don't have to take imp devo aura to get into the tree. Say something like the improved strength and int from Holy- with that and righteous duty for an additional 6% we might catch up to warriors on hp through talents (Comparatively) and have the additional block percent, so that gear could be better stratified and not have to overburden in one area just to compensate.

3:42 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Nerfing the holy tree would be a SLAP IN THE FACE and an OUTRAGE!

5:29 PM  
Anonymous Suicidal Zebra said...

Just wanted to bring to peoples attention a pretty interesting post on the official forums:

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=89430349&sid=1

The implication is that we cannot block whilst completing an instant spell cast animation. It is unclear whether this affects warriors and druids with their melee moves, but obviously it has huge implication for paladins with our spell-based threat generation (Seal Casting, JoR, Consecration etc) and shallower health pool.

This appears to have been confirmed by a number of screenshots and Fate's Nightbane kill video (where he has over 100% m/d/p/b but is still crushed when consecrating).

As Angelsblood states in the thread itself, "[I]f it's 'working as intended', then all the itemization in the world isn't going to help us".

6:40 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

A holy paladin is the ONLY paladin who is needed in both raids and can be viable voor solo PvE.

Retribution is still the best leveling/pve solo spec.

-Vir

6:47 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


There are two things that make Holy Paladins overpowered.

#1 Extremely mana efficient heals.
#2 Divine Shield.

Both need a nerf. It would make Paladins on par with Priests in both PVE and PVP.


As someone who's play a priest at 60 (when that was the level cap) and a paladin at 70, I can tell you that a paladin is in no way on par with the healing power of a priest. Your flash heal, and renew are two tools that a paladin would love to have in pvp, and a powerful flash heal would make a world of difference.

On top of that, a priest has a better offense and many more combat options than a paladin does. The mana effecency in pvp isn't that big of a deal. The only thing a paladin truely has on a priest is divine shield and plate.

DS is very powerful, but in exchange for that, paladins have weak flash heals, the lowest dps in the game, a lack of combat options, and the worst combat system in the game.

I'd gladly deal with blizzard taking out DS or giving DS to priests in exchange for power word shield...If Blizzard would then scrap the seal/judgement system and give us a decent combat system, along with a similar amount of combat options that other classes enjoy.

6:55 PM  
Blogger crazyflanger said...

Nerfing our shield or our mana effeciency would ruin a paladin as a healer. Thats about all we got going for us. Thats all that puts us on par(or perhaps slightly above) the utility of a priest or druids heals, even shaman to some extent. We have no HoTs, we have no group heals.

Healing in PvP sucks in general. Any type of spell casting in PvP sucks because every class has an interupt or silence(they might need a certain pet or spec). Paladins are the only class that can avoid this plague, only for 12 seconds, and only if there isn't an opposing priest just waiting for you to bubble. Mass dispell already nerfed divine shield so why nerf it more? Divine shield has almost no use in PvE because paladins draw almost no aggro from healing.

Mana efficency is the opposite of divine shield, it is only usefull in PvE and serves almost no purpose in PvP because you are dead long before your mana runs out. In PvE paladins are amazing as healers along side a shadow priest. No doubt about this. I healed all of black morass without going below 60% mana.

So in this one situation we may appear to be over powered, but lots of classes can appear to be over powered "situationally"

-Mages who PoM/AP/Pyro for 6k
-Rogues who blow all their cool downs.
-Warriors with a healbot behind them
-Shaman...well not shaman.

I could go on.


The point I'm making is Holy is the only thing a paladin has. I've tried all the specs many times. Protection still doesn't make us as good as the common warrior, and ret is just a joke.

6:56 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You're both ignorant and arrogant. You seem to think that your opinion is the only valid one, and those who disagree are idiots.

I'm glad you're leaving for Warhammer. Please, just leave WoW. Paladins like you are the ones who have put us into this Healing-only hole. Paladins like you knock Prot/Ret down a peg every change you get, and then complain about why we're not a front-lines class.

7:25 PM  
Anonymous Absolutist said...

You're both ignorant and arrogant. You seem to think that your opinion is the only valid one, and those who disagree are idiots.

I'm glad you're leaving for Warhammer. Please, just leave WoW. Paladins like you are the ones who have put us into this Healing-only hole. Paladins like you knock Prot/Ret down a peg every change you get, and then complain about why we're not a front-lines class.


You, sir... are an IDIOT! If you would have taken the time to look at our trees and our itemization you would know better.

Paladins that are unbuffed and naked have 1000HP+ less then naked unbuffed warriors.

So first thing: before we tank we need to have IMBA gear. No such thing as just respeccing to protection @ 70 with the blues you have collected from leveling 60-70. I have main tanked Mechanar, Botanica, Arcatraz, Old Hillsbrad and so far I've collected two of my 5 righteous setpieces. Rest of my gear is almost all blue above lvl 66.

STILL I TAKE LOADS OF DMG. I know you are gonna say: you don't know what gear to choose or it's bad gear for tanking. I've been playing my paladin for a long time and I know what a paladin needs and doesn't need for tanking.

Stamina, defense and spelldmg. Perhaps some intellect but most of that is unneccesary due to spiritual attunement. ALL of my gear has those stats and I have socketed and enchanted most of them. Still I dont get any more then 8900 HP when I'm unbuffed. Buffed I can spawn an extra 1000-1500hp, depends on the classes that are in my group. So far every healer has said to me that I do a fine job tanking but that I take way to much damage. I can't do the final arcatraz boss without one offhealing class in my group (shadow priest, shaman, druid) besides the normal healer. Why? Simply because the talents in the protection tree just dont cut it and the itemization sucks really bad.

After I heard the news that the tier 4 and 5 tanking sets are gonna get a review in the next patch I was happy. I thought there was a chance for me to be tanking in Karazhan. Then I realized: how the hell am I gonna get those set items if I take way to much dmg. Well my friends, thats where a new problem comes in: we need to be holy for any of this. So great job Blizzard, we are still where we were before the review. We are being forced to being holy @ lvl 70.

Don't even get me started on retribution. On the way from 60-70 it is a pretty descent leveling tree, but it turns into a useless pile of crap once you are done questing. Once again we are forced to spec holy if we want to do anything @ 70.

11:46 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

In PVE healing paladin is just fine (great healing/mana efficency, but only single target). Prot and Ret needs help, everyone agrees. But PvP?

Nearly every sucessful Arena Team has a paladin, in all three brackets. Holy/Prot Pala is a must have, like MS Warrior. Yes, pvp was never really "balanced" but this is a huge imbalance that isn't fun.

People always complained about palas, and they were right in some points. Holy Shield is a bit like deathcoil, cyclone, sheep or fear: You're unable to do something, and that is frustrating.
With BC, alliance made this experiences too and started to complain. So nothing has changed, pala is and was the strongest and most annoying pvp heal/support class in wow, but more people realize this now.

Prot needs buffs for PvE and Ret needs some serious buffs for Raid-PvE and Group-PvP. Healing is fine, but nerf Divine Shield just a few Seconds.

1:21 AM  
Blogger Mastgrr said...

Divine Shield will never be nerfed below 12 seconds. It's our PVE escape mechanism and 12 seconds is just enough time to run out of range from mobs. They already nerfed it through Mass Dispel.

1:41 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Currently running a 30/31 holy/prot build. I have a healing set and a tanking set. We run 1 prot warrior, 3 healers, 5 dps and me for Kara.

When we need a 2nd tank, or handle guest packs, I do it. The rest of the time, I heal. The exception is if we're light on healers one night, then I heal full time. I currently run about 10.5k HP unbuffed, 500 defense, and about 83% avoidance with Holy Shield up (still need my libram). I have the full righteous set, but I only use 2 pieces: shoulders and gloves. Just enough to get the 2 piece set bonus.

In my opinion, it's the best build and playstyle. I miss out on Deflection, Holy Shock, Light's Grace, Ardent Defender, and Avenger's Shield, but I can heal or tank as needed, thereby freeing up a raid slot and making the raid more versatile.

I need a bit more time to build aggro, but it's usually not a problem. I miss Deflection the most, but until I get enough gear to get me to 95% avoidance(so the extra 5% parry makes me uncrushable) and Blizzard fixes the vulnerable casting thing, I don't see it as much of a loss. My solution would be to just remove any casting animations while we do our instants, like what happens when we cast a seal. Not sure how feasible this is programming wise, but I suspect not hard.

Lastly, we can have advantages compared to a warrior that people don't think about. A warrior likes strength, +hit, and parry(because it resets their swing timer, which they really need). These are things a paladin really doesn't need. The only thing we need that a warrior doesn't, is spell damage. That's it.

Why did I say we don't need parry? Because Dodge and block rating are cheaper in the item budget. If we concentrate on these two, we'll run around with considerably higher avoidance than a warrior if shield block and holy shield are down. Even more so, if we can throw in some more block value (also pretty cheap in the item budget).

So, take a warrior budget item, remove strength, +hit, and +parry rating, and replace with +stam, +dodge, and +block rating/value. You'll end up with a set that has greater mitigation and more stam. Spell damage isn't really needed if you have a good spell damage sword. In reality, I'd like 2 sets of tanking gear: One with slightly reduced stats and spell damage for when I need threat generation, and one for pure mitigation.

Breyn of Moonrunner (US)

6:27 PM  
Anonymous Leord said...

A guild member found this somewhere:

http://clawforum.xxlservers.com/viewtopic.php?t=1655

It is some funny patch notes for 2.1, but in the midst of irony, sacrasm and fun, one line actually makes sense with current class balance:

* Retribution Paladins, Moonkin Druids and Hunters will now count as half a raid slot. For example, a group could enter Karazhan with eleven players by replacing a player with two hunters.

Funny, and on point! =D

10:31 PM  

Post a Comment

<< Home