02 April, 2007

It's Almost Like the Tacitus

Tigole's posted a very interesting post which adresses major concerns of the game right now, from melee DPS, glancing blows, raid gear itemization, flasks and trash respawns. Good stuff and it's very nice to see that all the concerns we have with the game are seriously being overviewed.

Most interesting of all I think is the thing where he says that the flask system is getting a complete overhaul. Makes me wonder in what way they're changing it...

19 Comments:

Blogger Lorath (EU Bloodhoof) said...

[error.topicDeleted]

Uhm... wtf. >_<
Tigole spilling the beans prematurely, or missing April 1st by one day?

9:39 PM  
Anonymous Thordurin of Bloodhoof said...

http://blue.cardplace.com/newcache/us/88680668.htm

BlueTracker FTW~!

10:40 PM  
Blogger Lord said...

Nice, Retribution paladins, feral druids, and shaman aren't even mentioned as melee dps classes! We will all run to the back and heal now...

-Vir

11:14 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

it does say 'etc.' at the end, leaving room for feral druids and shaman and paladins. that said, i don't think of paladins as a dps class, really. i'm not there just to beat on things. i prefer to think of myself as a living group buff. everyone in my group/raid is better because i am present. and yes, i have to melee for this to work properly, and i need the cooperation of the other paladins in my raid/group, which is sometimes extremely difficult to get, because most holy paladins i have adventured with seem to have totally forgotten that they even have seals or judgements at all, and getting them to lay judgement of light/mana on the target i'm hitting is like herding cats. even with that said, if you think of yourself as a living raid buff instead of just another dpser, you might feel a bit better about the situation.

i'd still like a few more utility skills, though. :p

11:37 PM  
Blogger Lord said...

It reflects the overall attitude blizz has, Retribution Paladins aren't meant to be viable in raids, and they know it.

11:45 PM  
Blogger Mastgrr said...

Lord, Tigole is a part of the dungeon design team - not class design team. That he didn't bring up class issues is obvious (the issue he was referring to was regarding melee DPS which applies to four classes)

11:46 PM  
Blogger Vaelin said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

12:03 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I won't get into the design team influencing where the classes go, it's been discussed before. As far as the 'etc', yes I guess that covers everyone that can possibly melee, even fire mages.

12:47 PM  
Blogger Brian said...

While Tigole is on the Dungeon Design team, he definitely has influence on how the classes play.

Look at the Huntsman in Karazhan. That, essentially, requires a Warrior because of disarm.

I'm not saying this is going to happen, but how easy would it be to design a dungeon where the mobs are immune to Holy damage. Wouldn't that remove any reason to bring a Retribution or Protection Paladin?

Or, suppose the class designers want to add something to the Paladin abilities and ask Tigole about it. If he says that the ability would ruin his encounters, do you think they'll implement it?

Tigole definitely has an impact on class design. That he has been percieved as a negative impact is troubling.

6:34 PM  
Anonymous Suicidal Zebra said...

So, roughly 5 months since nerfing Weapon Skill so that it no longer negated glancing blows they backtrack and provide some means for melee DPS to deal with them. Lack of thought anyone?

Cleave-effects doing cone-AoE is a good idea a long time in coming, and should both reduce the need for off-healing and improve the viability of melee-DPS. Still, spell-based AoE effects remain an issue (as realistically they should be, or we may aswell ditch AoE heal effects).

Still, worries of warriors being the only viable raid-tank remain, and no news on the Holy Priest/Paladin healing debacle. Flasks changes could be interesting, we'll have to wait and see what occurs on that front.

*Awaits PTR patch notes with interest*

*logs on 70 UD Warlock*

6:41 PM  
Blogger Micah said...

I don't pay money to play an "et cetera" class.

Do you?

8:36 PM  
Blogger Mastgrr said...

I think you might be reading too much in to his "etc".

9:28 PM  
Blogger Kaziel said...

I have to agree that people are reading far too much into it. Honestly, some of the reactions on this thread are like Tigole walked into your home, insulted your mother, then spit in your eye... >.>

Though to act as my own counterpoint, as you said yourself, Mastgrr, Tigole is in dungeon design... if he doesn't think of off-specs right off the bat, then does that mean he doesn't think about them when he's helping to design dungeons? Just a random thought I had.

1:18 AM  
Blogger Mastgrr said...

They work on the same game, so obviously the teams talk to each other - the question is how much? People've got to keep in mind though that this was a raid and dungeon-oriented blue post by the lead raid and dungeon designer. That it lacks class information is pretty obvious.

That Ret Paladins or Prot Paladins are unwanted in raids isn't a dungeon design issue, it's a class issue.

2:58 AM  
Blogger Vaelin said...

Actually, Mastgrr, that Prot Paladins are unwanted in raids IS a dungeon design issue.

Unless encounters are designed that heavily favor or REQUIRE a Paladin tank (or tanks), Warriors will continue to fill this role because whatever else they can bring doesn't stack up to healing. Even if Paladins are brought up to be as good a tank as a Warrior, point for point, they're almost always still more valuable as a healer than as a tank.

The only thing Prot Paladins may have going for them is a situation in which their guild is short on Warriors, allowing them to finally fill the tank slot(s). If your guild has plenty of Warriors that are good at tanking and who enjoy it, you only have one spec option if you want to contribute the most to your raid progression - Holy.

3:28 AM  
Blogger Vaelin said...

I should point out that you were even partially wrong on the Ret issue. While Retribution raid viability is heavily a class issue, raid and dungeon design also factors substantially into its current state as the tree was designed (by all appearances) to provide the most utility in a very large raid - namely 40. In 40 man raids, there is room to take advantage of the benefits that offspecs bring - be they spell crit or melee crit auras from balance/feral druids, AP boosts and added DPS from enhancement shamans, or raid-wide crit bonus and group healing boost from ret paladins.

By discontinuing 40-man raids in the expansion and beyond (as far as we know) as well as adding a "new" class to each faction, Blizzard reduced the number of free slots available to any particular class. With the exception of Shadow Priests, this has hurt "off-specced" hybrids tremendously.

3:35 AM  
Blogger Vaelin said...

Thinking about the notion of "off-spec" in general, also, I feel I should point out that the Paladin Holy tree should have been an "off-spec" from the start. The Paladin class was originally billed as a melee class. It levels as a melee class. I believe that in this vein, it should be a melee class in endgame. This is probably the biggest reason I canceled my account and am looking in other directions.

3:39 AM  
Anonymous Tomas said...

Actually, we did the Huntsman with a Paladin tank. It took more effort to keep him up, but as his threat is based on holy, he consecrated, judged his way through the disarm.

11:30 PM  
Blogger Kaziel said...

I was thinking about this earlier, and I realized one issue has nothing to do with whether or not Ret/Prot pallies are unwanted, or whether or not Holy Pallies are awesomer than anything under the sun. It's pure numbers.

With tBC coming out, all the new raid instances are 25 or 10 man instances. There are also currently 9 classes playable, which means, assuming you brought a balanced group, you'd have 7 classes with 3 people, and 2 classes with 2 people.

Now, before I go any further, I want to clarify, that one of the major goals I see of the posts made on this blog is not calling for Paladins to be buffed through the roof. Instead, it is for all Paladin talent trees (and to a lesser degree all classes) to be able to spec a certain way and still do their thing in a raid:
Spec Holy: You heal.
Spec Prot: You tank.
Spec Ret: You smash faces.

While this is a good line of thought, as I said, there's a problem. The problem is pure numbers. Specifically the number of primary healer specs.

Let's do some theorycrafting. We have a 25 man raid, and it's the group I listed above (7 classes with 3 people, and 2 classes with 2 people) and each person has a different spec. The 2 classes with 2 people will be mages and rogues, b/c they both have roughly the same CC abilities, and otherwise just DPS (specifically the two "left out" are a Subtlety Rogue and a Frost Mage). This breaks down to:

Pure DPS: Balance Druid, Marksmanship Hunter, Fire Mage, Assassination Rogue, Combat Rogue, Elemental Shaman, Demonology Warlock, Destruction Warlock, Arms Warrior, and Fury Warrior

DPS/Utility mix: Beastmastery Hunter, Survival Hunter, Arcane Mage, Retribution Paladin, Shadow Priest, Enhancement Shaman, Affliction Warlock

DPS/Tanking mix: Feral Druid

Pure Tanks: Protection Paladins, Protection Warriors

Healing/Utility mix: Discipline Priest

Pure Healing: Restoration Druid, Holy Paladin, Holy Priest, Restoration Shaman

As you can clearly tell there are only 5 specs that can fill their role, and effectively heal at the same time. And lets be honest, 5 people can not, no matter how awesome they are, keep a whole raid alive. For the bosses who use AOE abilities, or have adds, the healer for a group would need to not only be healing the tank, but also healing their own group.

As Vaelin said,
"By discontinuing 40-man raids in the expansion and beyond (as far as we know) as well as adding a "new" class to each faction, Blizzard reduced the number of free slots available to any particular class. With the exception of Shadow Priests, this has hurt "off-specced" hybrids tremendously."
And he is exactly right. With fewer slots, there are less very few to no slots available for a non-healer, when a healer is needed. This is not a problem that was created by one group. It is a joint mistake caused by, what I would guess, is not enough communication between Class Design and the Raid & Dungeon team.

From here, there are two "fixes" (if this problem ever gets fixed persay).

1) Tigole realizes there too large a need for healers, and thus those that can heal are being excluded, so the "fix" is to lower damage output, increase health, and increase defense/resists. The battles take about as long as before, but instead of requireing 8-10 of 25 man raid to be healers, it only calls for 5-7 to be healers. But now to take the enemy down effienctly you need more DPS and Utility, so you bring more offspecs. Everyone's happy? Well, it might fix the problem, persay, but I think it would also make fights very very boring. With less damage means less pressure. I go into raid dungeons to be challenged in figuring out how to beat a boss, not to kill a bigger version of what's outside. With a self imposed cap on damage, fights would be snorefests, and (speaking only for myself) that's not the answer that I think is needed.

2) The other answer is Class Design sees this problem, and goes in and pretty much retools the Retribution, Enhancement, Balance and possibly Elemental trees, almost from the ground up. Instead of being "DPS with a little support" they are turned into something akin to the Shadow Priest. They do some damage (nothing huge) but though that, healing is done. At core, what's needed is more ways to heal, but ways to heal that don't involve standing at the back being a healbot. The idea I'm thinking about is something along the lines of a certain percent of their damage is turned into healing for all memebers of their raid within a certain radius (say... 10-15 yards). By having them do damage, they do what is needed (keep people alive) while at the same time they can do what they want (which is do damage).

Also, before anyone accuses me of being anti-holy, my paladin is and always has been a healbot. My spec is 42/19/0, and when I created Alixander, I made him specifically to fill the lacking role of a on-call healer for my guild (this was back before the expansion). Honestly, I perfer standing back in the rear and healing, but that's my perogative. Paladins, and all classes, IMO should have a choice, and right now I don't think we do, if we want to raid.

1:30 AM  

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