24 February, 2007

The Silent Treatment

Vaelin said we relatively dodged nerfs, and we get this:
...Forbearance now applies a -15% physical damage [edit: some reports are saying all damage] penatly for the duration. It does not seem to affect healing, did not test damage spells. This is for forebearance caused by BoP/DS. DS and AW are also now on linked timers, and AW does not cause forbearance. So if your DS is on cooldown, you cannot AW even if forbearance is gone. Likewise you cannot DS until AW cools down.
(thanks Anonymous)

I remember when we were giving suggestions to Blizzard on how to improve the Paladin class 18 months ago we suggested giving us a damage increasing ability that shared the same cooldown as Divine Shield. This was before the creation of Forbearance!

My suspicion as to why Forbearance now causes a -15% damage reduction is for the obvious reason now that you can Blessing of Protection yourself while also using Avenging Wrath.

If this change still exists, Avenging Wrath shouldn't be a magic buff and the Forbearance debuff should be shortened down to 30 seconds to the least. One minute of -15% is ridiculous. It makes throwing it on cloth in PVP and PVE an uneasy decision. No longer you can BoP at the start of the fight or anything, cause that means your DPS will be punished for his damage output of at least one minute of the fight. That is far too long. Especially in for example arena PVP.

In my opinion Forbearance should last 15 seconds: it prevents session casting due to that BoP is 10 seconds and Divine Shield is 12 seconds while it also makes you consciously give the target a damage output reduction debuff. One minute as it is right now is absolutely over the top.

Otherwise I think this change was completely unnecessary. Nothing was broken, so nothing needed fixing.


Anonymous rush said...

I was reading this thread earlier and at first.. a hoax?!

but then a string of screenshots are shown.. a bug?!

tbh i dont think its either but all i can say is that i hope this doesnt go live.

12:01 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


A post made by Tseric basically saying the following:

"I've made note of the cooldowns and the reduction in damage. At the moment, I can't confirm whether this should've been in the notes or is a bug, so I'll have to get back to you on a weekday."

So perhaps this could just be a bug? We will see.

- Reeve

1:33 AM  
Blogger Marcus said...

bug or not, it's bullshit.

Blizz shouldn't be able to a change a class this fundamentally without offering free respecs.

I personally would need imp BoF/BoP and Imp Conc because DS was the only way for a pally to avoid CS/Silence lock when self healing and Stunlock when chasing.

1:49 AM  
Anonymous Suicidal Zebra said...

Unlikely to be a bug or a mistake, as others have said it is highly improbable that these sorts of changes can slip in to new code accidentally. It's possible these are earlier in-house patch versions which should not have seen the light of day, but if that is the case I shudder to think what state Blizz's version tracking is in.

No, from past experience these changes are almost certainly going to be in 2.1, and though I don't like saying it I think Blizz wanted to get this change in through the back door, unnoticed if possible.

As things stand, I can see the justification for the shared cooldown (hell, I suggested something similar back in 2005) but a shared 5-minute cooldown is too long. Anything like a 5-minute cooldown on AW is absurd given poor paladin DPS compared to other classes and the fact that it can be purged/dispelled/stolen/devoured etc.

I'd adovocate at max a cooldown of 2mins for AW which also puts DS on a similar cooldown, and talents to bring DS's baseline cooldown to 3 minutes to compensate for it being linked with AW. That, or make AW castable on other players. I don't see concurrent AW/BoP as a significant issue because the vast majority of Paladin DPS is through weapon swings.

15% damage nerf whilst under Forbearance, even if it only relates to physical damage (something which I doubt, we need to get on there and test SoR and SoC) is unwarranted. Simple as that. Unless they want us to be healbots 24/7 in PvP.

2:17 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Perhaps this is a silly question...but assuming that the -15% damage debuff isn't limited to physical damage, isn't this change going to be most upsetting to our friendly neighborhood mages and warloccks? A full minute of only 85% damage is really going to hurt in a raid or pvp situation...

2:36 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It is likely a 'nerf' for use in the Arena. BoP the mage/warlock and melee DPS can't hurt em, so they then run in and AoE or PoM Pyroblast/etc the Melee to death.

3:07 AM  
Blogger Lorath (EU Bloodhoof) said...

Forbearance nerfs ALL dam, atleast for us... even Retrib aura gets a cut. Nasty pic linked.


Stolen from


7:30 PM  
Anonymous Geo said...

Sup Paladins,

If this is true we will see more and more shockadins in world of warcraft. It says 15% physical reduction so spells are all going to be the same.

Not only that we get a better Avenging Wrath extra 10 secs. We can also use it with forbearance so that means we can pop a blessing of protection and avenging wrath at the same time and pwn melee for 10 secs free of charge, or chase down a hunter not worrying about his pet or physical shots, or a shamans wind fury, or any other physical attack :0) hehe.

It will change up our strategies for the most part this is true. I have always been a fan of DS over AW but now with these new combo abilities it will change how we fight all classes.

Melee BOP/AW/Trinket burn down mob
caster Divine/Trinket Burn down mob

In the end we will see more and more paladins with high spell damage gear to keep there judgements high and there crusader strikes hitting without loosing much from the debuff.

After this patch

After using bubbles

Spell crit>Melee crit

Spell Damage>Attack power

But this is all just speculations based off the information provided.

I look forward to tinkering with this once it is released.


Level 70 Paladin Neela Demonsoul PVP

4:41 PM  
Anonymous Suicidal Zebra said...


Take a look at the links provided above, Forbearance reduces all damage done by 15%, not just physical damage.

I am relatively okay with the shared cooldowns on AW and DS, though I feel that a cooldown of 3mins rather than 5 would be more appropriate were this the case, especially given that AW is so easy to negate.

The forbearance debuff however is not justified simply because Paladin DPS is not high enough to warrant any nerf for a 1minute duration, and BoP is too easy to purge/dispell/spellsteal/devour in order to negate it's effect, and it still lets through magical spells and effects.

I guess we'll find out this week whether the changes are intended or not. I am not holding my breath for any justification however.

6:09 PM  
Blogger Lord Vir said...

AW is in no way good enough to be on a 5 minute cooldown. On a five minute shared cooldown with divine shield, it won't be used other than in pve.

As a retribution paladin currently, I have to go out of my way to look for opportunities to use AW because AW causes forbearance, and I can easly be CC'ed making the spell near worthless.

While a 30 second duration does make the spell 'nicer', it still doesn't make up for the Divine Shield nerfs. AW shouldn't be on a 5 minute cooldown in it's current state. If it had some anti-CC mode like other damage enhancement spells it might be worth it.

I like the idea that blizzard is pursuing here, trading survivability for damage, it's just that the trade off is a bit too much right now. AW needs some extra kick if it's going to be on a 5 min shared CD with our 'class defining ability'.

Really, I think Avenging Wrath should have been the 41 point ret talent, with crusader strike made baseline. CS doesn't add all that much DPS, and it especially wouldn't with holy or prot builds, but adds much needed interactivity to the class. The level 70 talent should have been something like blessing of spell warding, a new heal, or a super-cleanse. As much as I love being a pwnadin, blizzard has been pushing us into a support role, and nothing they gave us in tbc fits that.

7:35 PM  
Blogger Micah said...

Heh, I already started levelling my Warrior in anticipation of their tanking upgrades.

I'll keep the Paladin for some PvE healing if he's needed, but I think I'm about ready to move on at this point.

10:02 AM  
Anonymous CopyKat said...

I wonder how many paladins will cancel their accounts after this. I just have pity for other pallies like me who shelled out $50 for the expansion to be nerfed again.


11:36 PM  
Anonymous rush said...

My rogue dinged 23.. yay

but seriously for a casual player like me how am i going to get this character upto atleast 60 fast enough to get the benefits from the expansion that i wanted with my paladin when i bought it.

11:40 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I've seen several posts saying we should grief our own faction in BGs with the debuff, thereby causing an outcry to get this removed. I am leaning towards the dark side.

11:54 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You can use DS and AW at the same time currently. Try this macro:

/cast Avenging Wrath
/cast Divine Shield


12:42 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

a post on the forum was just announce that the nerfs are not going in...but there will be nerfs comming to our burst damage.

2:08 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

As a previous anonymous poster said, all this nerfing was strictly due to Arena 2v2. Paladin/Mage setup. BoP the Mage, DS with AW macro, stun the squishier enemy member and one Pyroblast and a AW'ed stunned JoC with a HoW and it's now two on one, and there was no way to stop it. This does not illustrate the need for a paladin nerfing, but the utter stupidity that is the Arena, at least with 2v2.

2:11 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


To corroborate what was said above about the nerfs not going in. Quoth Eyonix:

After further testing, we've decided to undo the following changes to the Paladin for the next patch as we felt the adjustments were too imposing on the class' ability to tank in dungeons.

-Increased the duration of "Avenging Wrath" by 50% (now lasts 30 sec.) This ability no longer invokes "Forbearance", but shares a cooldown with "Divine Shield".

-Forbearance now reduces damage dealt by the affected player by 15%.

With that being said, we do feel that the Paladin is currently capable of producing too much burst damage and are investigating reasonable ways to make minor reductions for the future.

2:14 AM  

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