22 December, 2006

2.0.3 = Talent Sync With Website

What does this mean?

Retribution is now nerfed. CS at 10 second cooldown, and Vengeance at 10% for 5 talent points.

Protection is now buffed. Improved Righteous Fury now additionally reduces damage from all sources by 6% if all points are spent in it, and Improved Divine Shield is now Sacred Duty, with the accompanying 6% stamina boost.

Holy is now nerfbuffed at the 41 point end, with Divine Illumination now lasting 15 seconds, with a 3 minute cooldown.

My WoW forum sig goes into effect upon the release of this patch:
WoW Paladins - Wholly PvE since 2007


Blogger Ghmou / Micah said...

Why do you say that Paladins are now wholly PvE?

I'm looking forward to tanking, yes, but I do my fair share in PvP too. All it takes is one Reckoning proc to knock a significant chunk of life off of anyone, though more for a squishy.

Reducing the bonus from Vengeance and increasing the CD of CS sucks to be sure, but it doesn't destroy the Ret tree. Yes, your DPS will go down, possibly significantly, but you'll still have enough nasty burst damage to take people out quicky, even moreso if they have already taken some damage.

Heck, I'm Prot and I enjoy PvP. I buff (pretty much only Light and Sacrifice, depending on the situation), I provide 15% silence/interrupt resist for the spellcasters in my group, and I can do a mean chunk of damage with some frequency. What's not to love?

I'm starting to agree that if Blizzard had initially released CS with a CD of 10s, and vengeance at 10% BEFORE anyone got to play with 6s CS and 15% vengeance, there wouldn't be as big an uproar. You would only have seen the vengeance reduction as a nerf. Now you're calling both nerfs, when Blizzard really had no obligation to give use a strike at all.

Yeah, it sucks, but Ret Paladins will still be useful in PvP and raids. Nothing more to it.

(No, I'm not a fanboi, I just enjoy math and did not become despondent after looking at the new "nerfed" CS/Veng.)

9:20 AM  
Blogger Mastgrr said...

I don't understand what you mean with "wholly PvE". I find myself to be very powerful in PVP. Crusader Strike was nerfed but really not as much as people clamor...it still provides awesome burst damage.

9:23 AM  
Blogger Vaelin said...

By "wholly PvE," I'm mainly referring to our new description as a "Healing/Tanking" hybrid.

I hate healing in PvP, with the myriad of interrupts, etc. available to other classes.

You can't tank in PvP, because players ignore aggro tables and taunts are useless.

All that extra stamina and damage mitigation only means you'll be the last one to die, and there's no honor in being the last one to die. You still die. Personally, I prefer to take a few down with me before I go.

9:33 AM  
Blogger Mastgrr said...

Yeah, interrupts suck - but there has to be a counter towards our healing somehow, especially considering that we've got Divine Shield. After spending A LOT of time being mainly a PVP healer I have to say that I feel it's relatively balanced. I am not kidding you on that.

Yeah, it sucks when being counter-spelled, but it forces me and my teammates to pick our positions (max range, just like on Sartura!) better plus dispel each other quicker. I love healing in PVP because it's very appreciated by other players.

Prot arguably is very tough to pin-point in PVP. Would probably consider Prot to mainly be anti-Rogue, anti-Warrior and anti-melee Shaman. I agree is a very limited role, though thanks to the 2.0.3 changes got slight increased potency towards casters.

I would think Prot is very good cap defenders in AB, good PVE tankers in AV and probably also good flag carriers in WSG (if you want to go for turtling over speed that is).

11:32 AM  
Anonymous Lindisfarne said...

Mastgrr, what you say is just wrong. Pure and simple. Actually DO some PvP, you will see.

Balanced on a 5-min cooldown which will be dispellable in BC.

Oh really, all the stuff I want to say has been said so often it hurts. If you gonna troll, at least try.

2:12 PM  
Blogger Lord Vir said...

I do well as a pvp healer...Or at least I did before I went back to full ret in 2.0. Yes, counterspell sucks ass. Mostly because we don't have another spell school to use once counterspelled, as the other classes do. I still think paladins are the best pvp healing class at 60.

I don't know if that will hold at 70.

I think we will be ok at level 60 pvp still with Retribution. The vengence nerf hurts, as does the crusader strike nerf. I would have rather seen them take away the +damage scaling from crusader strike (and made it a flat amount) rather than nerf the thing to 10 seconds. Hell Crusader strike already scales with strength, why does it need to double scale anyway? It would be pretty sweet if they did away with +damage for the ret tree all together, all that would be needed would be to move judgement of command to something based on weapon damage, at least it would be one less stat to chase...

The gem of the retribution tree in my view is still fanaticism along with sanctified judgement. While I'm not happy with the nerf, and I think they could have fixed crusader strike in a better manner, it's not the end of the class.

The bigger issue to me is I have no motivation to level to 70. Once I'm PvP'ing in the 70 bracket, I'll have to deal with mass dispell on my divine shield and my avenging wrath. On top of that, Avenging Wrath will be purgable, and a key target for spell steal. It's shaping up that AW will not be very viable in group pvp situations.

Of course, this is theorycraft at this point, and I'm just speculating.

5:12 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Logged in, CS is still on a 6 second cooldown. Even if/when it does go on a 10 second cooldown it's really not that bad.

It seems you look only at the negative in things and cry nerf. It's a wonder you've no re-rolled a Lock yet.

6:32 PM  
Anonymous Fadaar said...

Vaelin knows Holy can kick ass in PVP, he's seen me do it!

- 60 Paladin, Alibi, Gilneas Server

7:05 PM  
Blogger BigFire said...

Come 2.0.3, I'll be 40/0/11. Crusader Strike was fun while it lasted, but time for something useful.

7:31 PM  
Anonymous Oberonsp said...

Holy > Ret, told ya Vael :D

-60 pally, Alibi, Gilneas

8:54 PM  
Blogger Mastgrr said...

Mastgrr, what you say is just wrong. Pure and simple. Actually DO some PvP, you will see.

I have been doing "some PVP". Healing in PVP is very powerful, because much of the games you can win by just out-healing your opponents. Paladins can keep a Warrior up for steamrolling through 16 second BoFs and Cleansing.

Balanced on a 5-min cooldown which will be dispellable in BC.

Priests get Mass Dispell the same level we get Avenging Wrath. Arguably this is a nerf to healing yes, but neither of us are talking about level 70 anyway.

Oh really, all the stuff I want to say has been said so often it hurts. If you gonna troll, at least try.

I am trolling my own blog? That's a new one.

10:16 PM  
Anonymous lindisfarne said...

When you actually CAN PvP heal, your opponents suck. This may be ok for you, for the majority, it's not. Paladins provoke Horde into zerging just by existing - you of all people should know this.
Sure, you can use this - but it's not really an all-powerful weapon in BG's.

And trolling one's own blog is actually fair game, I think.

2:40 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

i personally haven't touched my paladin since a few weeks after 2.0 went out, because i did not want to taunt myself with talents that were a month old. blizzard better give us talent refunds when the expansion goes live, and by 'us' i mean every player, there are too many differences between what's on live now and what's on the current beta.

but yeah, what worries me more than the paladin changes is that i've sunk 300g+ into engineering, and it is totally garbage in the burning crusade, at least when compared to other professions. humbug, i say!

6:14 AM  
Blogger Vaelin said...

I'm probably going to still go deep Retribution after the nerf is live.

The raid/party benefits a deep Ret build brings to the table remain intact. An additional 3% more to crit for all attacks, and 6% more healing in your party are substantial.

Ret is all about control. You control when you do damage (excluding SoC procs) via stuns, judgments, and CS. I like control. A longer CS cooldown simply means I'll have to carry more grenades around and time my JoC's with greater skill. Thanks to Fanaticism, I'll still be dishing out frequent judgment crits.

I also like to kill things quickly, and let's face it - unless you have a ton of spell damage gear (300ish+ damage/healing) to pull off an impressive Holy hybrid build, Ret is your best option.

I'm already 2/3 of the way to my GM claymore/mace. Which one I'll choose is still up in the air (part of me wants to stick to the lore tradition and get the huge beatstick, but it's kinda goofy looking, like it should squeak when you hit something, and the claymore looks hotsauce).

8:05 AM  
Blogger Vaelin said...

Additionally, I feel a tremendous sense of freedom in settling on a spec now. I'm clear to choose gear that fits my preferred playstyle. It means I won't be standing in front of the armor quest NPC, token in hand, pondering which piece to choose. It means I'm free to bid on much of the soon to be plentiful "hybrid DPS plate" gear. My guild mates are ribbing me about "taking one for the team," but I'm growing more and more content with my decision by the minute. Also, we'll see who's laughing when I get to 70 and go smack faces with Avenging Wrath and Bloodlust up.

8:33 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Holy > Ret", one guy says, what is it with these people? All of the talent lines are cool.

This ISN'T the changes on the website. The Prot changes are NOT on the website, further the Ret change on the website is NOT what
is on PTR (which is that CS is not 250 mana and 10 cd but 120 mana down from the current 151).

This won't be changing retribution much at all. Five percent damage decrease for just the holy damage some of the time and four
second difference on the strike.

12:02 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To the guy above me: Have you ever played a Ret build? Vengeance increases physical AND Holy damage.

5% is a big deal when you take into consideration the numerous other small damage nerfs we've received over the past two years. When will it be enough? When we can no longer defeat any class in a PVP environment?

I'd like to know why other classes are retaining their current damage with the addition of increased survivability whereas we're receiving nerfs to 2-year old talents and ones that've been released no longer than a month.

How about fixing the 4000+ instant pyroblasts that killed my Warrior friend in 1-shot before I could even think about healing him. What about the dots that become a death sentence to even Paladins now because of Unstable Affliction. It's an absolute load of crap giving a class the ability to remove harmful effects but be unable to do so because the Unstable Affliction is protecting the other 4-6 dots behind it. You'd think Blizzard would give our spells some sort of penalty for being removed considering 90% of them are susceptible to dispel.

3:39 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

A few points:

-In regards to our 5 minute abilities being dispellable, yes its sorta true. There is a caveat though. Mass dispel costs quite a bit, uses a ground targetting system ( can be slow to use by many players), and picks a random debuff to remove. If you have at least 3 buffs ( you will generally have 4 when using AW or DS, righteous fury, seal, and blessing), then it will only have a 25% chance of being dispelled assuming 100% accuracy ( which isnt true).

- Paladins are one class that CAN tank in PVP. The enemy wants to take out healers first, so heal. If they attack you, go tank. If they stop, start healing again. And holding a single point as a paladin is more effective than any other class. And of course if you go ret you can still do some burst damage. But this is from a protection POV.

- Spell damage plate is MUCH more plentiful in the expansion. So by 62 or so, its possible to have 300+ spell damage in plate. I agree that a 10 sec CD on CS sucks, especially with the 10% vengeance. But it actually works out ok with new itemization.

- 4000+ Pyroblasts arent a problem. Dont let the mage sit there pyroblasting everyone. Mages are so easy to kill for most classes it isnt even funny. Thier ability to kill easily is because of that. My hunter ( 48 MM) is far more dangerous than a mage. I can beat 4k easy in the time it takes to cast pyroblast and I have almost as much armor as a paladin with no shield. And at 70, many plate wearers can have 10k + HP without being raid buffed, using no consumables.

-The main problem is at 60. Most of the above points dont apply until the expansion. In the expansion, most of these complaints will disappear. Sure, people will still fuss about vengeance and CS, but mostly because they just want to be overpowered.

5:35 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

My only concern with the CS is refreshing judgements. As long as Judgements go up to 20 seconds then I am fine with the nerf.

As I learned from Rocky...

Its not how you hit, Its how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward.

I don't know about you but I love being the player the horde just can't seem to kill, and since 2.0 just can't ignore either.

Our DPS may not be mind-boggling after this nerf but It isn't laughable anymore either.

10:18 PM  

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