23 May, 2006

Forums Down, Fun with PSP

Reading the Paladin forums over the past few days has made me want to bash my head against a mason block wall. I can't believe the amount of crying by some over the upgrades to our blue PvP set. In many of the posts, they seem to believe that they will be stuck with the new gear stats in the next patch. Personally, I wish this were the case - or at least that I could go in and repurchase it even after letting my rank slip. I'm now going to have to grind a couple ranks again to get the updated gear. Don't get me wrong - I'm currently ret-specced, Vengeance and all. I understand the value of crit % as well as anyone. I also understand, though, that it's not the end-all and be-all of our class. To that end, I've summed up my recent sentiments thusly:

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16 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey Vaelin,

I am relieved to find out that those who already own the blue PvP set will not experience a loss in chance to crit. However, I don't feel your cartoon commentary is entirely fair, as it took me until this morning to find a comment from Blizzard to confirm this fact.

Additionally, playing a hybrid is only one way to play a paladin. Whether those who play Critadins are noobs is another matter entirely, but surely there would be an outcry from the holy-specced pallys if all the mana regen and +healing abilities where taken from one of the paladin sets in favor of agi or crit chance...

7:30 PM  
Anonymous Suicidal Zebra said...

So Vaelin, what do you think about all those who are complaining about the changes to the ranks 12-13 PvP set, by those who most likely are Ret/Reck spec'd and relying on a high Crit?

I have to agree with the poster above, the highly compromised hybrid style proposed by sets such as Judgement and Avenger, and loved by the new breed of Shocknoobs, is only one way to play a Paladin. Indeed most of the time players using this skill base essentially run around healbotting, especially with the high resist rates of Holy being observed right now. Should we all have to do that? In my view you are a hybrid by the way that you play, not the gear that you use. I mean, since when did the old PvP set put Holy Light and FoL on perminante cooldown.

I'd also have to say that Mana/5 is nuts on a PvP set for us, and I am not convinced we need quite as much Int as is proposed on the set (104, vs 24 with the old set) at the cost of 55 Agility and 33 Stamina given a full set. Somewhat of a retrograde step for those of us in the 'thick of things'.

As I have said before, the Rank 7-10 set seems redundant to me given the existance of Lawbringer and Avenger, and though the option of two very different sets at 7-10 is fantastic, not allowing the same for Ranks 12-13 (indeed for all the hybrids) boggles the mind.

Hrm.. gotta cut it short there... foooood time ;)

10:05 PM  
Anonymous Vaelin said...

I've personally confirmed this, when I got on the PTR a few nights ago and visited the Champions Hall. I was able to purchase 4 of the new pieces (I've since de-ranked to Knight-Champion from my peak at Commander) and have them in my bags along with the old blue gear.

I was mainly responding to players posting things like "NEW PvP sets for Pallies are pointless!!" Come on - pointless? Get real. A "pointless" Paladin set would look something like this:

Chestplate of Atrocious Itemization
275 Armor Plate
+5 Stamina
+30 Spirit
Increases damage done by fire spells by up to 65.
Chance on ranged hit: generate 1 additional rage or energy.

10:06 PM  
Anonymous Vaelin said...

Speaking on the old Field Marshal's Aegis, a great post can be found here listing the various sets.
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-paladin&t=1058802&p=1&tmp=1#post1058802

Here's the summary:

New Field Marshal Aegis set:

3897 Armor
111 Strength
111 Stamina
103 Intellect
4 Crit
114 Healing/Damage
22 Mp5

Old Field Marshal Aegies set:

3504 Armor (3614 if you count agility)
100 Strength
55 Agility
149 Stamina
18 Intellect
10 Spirit
3% to Crit (+2.75 Crit from Agility)
1% to Hit

Six pieces of Judgement armor: (same slots as the pvp set)

75 Strength
120 Stamina
119 Intellect
36 Spirit
123 Damage/Healing
21 Mp5

==============================
You only lose a total of about 1.75% crit chance - something you can make up for in the other two armor slots, ring slots, trinket slots, neck, and weapon slot.

You gain over 300 armor.

You gain strength, meaning you gain attack power. Higher attack power means larger hits and crits, including SoC procs.

Tack onto your already higher hits/crits the added spell damage and you should see an overall increase in damage dealt while wearing this set. Only now, you can live longer because you'll still have enough mana to heal yourself - and do it more efficiently because that +spell damage is also +healing.

10:15 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

There are a few things you guys have to understand here.

1. The new epic set being better stat wise then the old one isn't an issue. Everyones stats got buffed. Had the paladin itemization stayed the same, the new set would have been buffed with +crit/agility/strength rather then spell power.

2. Yes, the people with the blue sets shouldn't complain since they get to keep them.

3. The people with the epic pvp sets have full right to bitch. They shouldn't be forced to change their playstyle. I have seen a few paladins (two on my server come to mind) who grinded to Grand Marshal in Pick up groups. These PuG's never win. Both of them played ret-noob style, and enjoyed it better then any other style. They are both having their old gear that they prefer and busted their asses for taken away from them and a new playstyle forced upon them. That just isn't right. It may not be me, but I can see when someone else is wronged and feel empathy for them.

4. The PvP sets were the only way for a critadin to obtain good gear, outside of avenger. Most critadins don't like to raid.

Personally I think the stat changes were good, the pvp sets needed to be updated to keep up with the raiding gear. I think changing the overall way the paladin sets work, and not allowing the old epic set to be kept for the high ranking paladins was wrong, and I don't need to have 31 points in retribution to see that.

This is one of the things that divides our community badly. People just have no respect for alternative playstyles. Maybe I do, because I enjoy respec'cing often. The "OMG RETNOOB L2P TEH NEW STATZ R AWESOME~!!@" attitute sucks. First off it's ignorant because the set would have been better with a buff no matter what, and secondly it's ignorant because it basically shits on someone because you aren't in their situation.

11:37 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think the ret-specced GM Paladins should give the new gear a try before crying about it. They may be pleasantly surprised to see how their now higher attack power and spell damage enhances their overall damage. They shouldn't have to change their playstyle at all.

12:40 AM  
Anonymous Vaelin said...

The last anonymous poster makes a good point. Believe it or not, Seal of Command and its corresponding judgment both have spell damage coefficients. With the updated gear, a ret-spec should see a marked increase in damage. Judge Crusader when you begin to beat on someone. Also make sure your Sanctity Aura is up, and you're wearing an adult diaper. You're probably going to wet yourself when you see how much your SoC/JoC hits for in the new armor. You won't even notice the 1.75% reduction to your crit rate, and you'll be thankful for the added mana when you realize you can judge more and keep yourself alive longer.

If you're still doing nothing but auto-attacking with SoC up and not taking advantage of the new changes to JoC and JoR, then I don't feel sorry for you. You're really missing out on readily available burst damage.

12:51 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Is the avenger still gonna be more appealing choise later on for paladins instead of PvP set?

I would like to see some comparison beatween them.

10:06 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You're probably going to wet yourself when you see how much your SoC/JoC hits for in the new armor. You won't even notice the 1.75% reduction to your crit rate, and you'll be thankful for the added mana when you realize you can judge more and keep yourself alive longer.


pretty much every ret paladin does this. Why do you people assume that anyone that doesn't agree with you must be playing incorrectly?

Really, this kind of stuff is why the paladin community is shit. If you don't believe it's shit, go to the forums of any other class.

PS- Strength adds more DPS then +spell damage does, so had the set been remade with Strength/Attack Power/+Crit, yes you would have gotten more damage out of it.

1:39 PM  
Blogger GSH said...

Spell dmg is more versatile though. Even a Ret pally heals occasionally. Also bumps up Consecration, Hammer of Wrath, etc.

I really like these sets, but they don't feel like PvP gear. They feel like 'balanced' paladin gear. Would be better if the mana/5s was switched for str, agility or crit%. Maybe if the Int was lowered slightly, and Str increased slightly.

7:17 PM  
Blogger Thoma said...

As nice as +spell damage is, it takes alot more of it to have a DPS effect. Assume that SoC procs at the observed rate of 6.75 ppm. Assume that it procs evenly every 8.8 seconds. SoC gets a 23% cofficent for spell damage. So if I have 100 spell damage I gain 23 damage to my seal on each hit. That works out to 2 dps gain. For the Shockadin build, you have enough tools so that you get more benfit out of that. But without Holy Shock/Conscrate....it's alot less DPS. And keep in mind that +spell damage only effects spells. Attack power benfits both SoC damage (because SoC is caluclated based off of weapon damage + attack power) and white damage.

To get that same damage increase from SoC just using attack power, I need ~ 32 attack power. And this scales up. While the ratio for JoC is better at ~43%, I still gain damage on it from attack power. Any effect we have that increases +spell damage (Sancty Aura) is going to have the same effect weither or not we have spell damage or attack power. It's simply a matter of how well does it scale for us.

Some changes could be made, like gain attack power via int as opposed to agility. But that would require alot of itemization changes. Or we could get physical crit from Int but that runs into the same problem. It all comes down to bad itemization/design for the Paladin class. We have to chase too many stats to be effective.

7:42 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Strength/Atkpower does not add more DPS than +damage. +18 damage is 18 more damage on a starfire (3.5 second cast). +18 attack power is roughly 5 more damage on a 3.80 swing weapon.

I could be wrong. The weight of attack power on an items "budget" might be less than spell damage. But for the most part they seem about even.

9:38 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Strength/Atkpower does not add more DPS than +damage. +18 damage is 18 more damage on a starfire (3.5 second cast). +18 attack power is roughly 5 more damage on a 3.80 swing weapon.


1 Strength adds more DPS then +1 spell power to anything that matters with +strength (ie seal of command), go ask on the paladin forums if you don't believe it. If there is anyone left that knows what they are talking about they will tell you.

Of course, +spell damage is better for SoR, JoC, and anything that doesn't depend on your melee damage. Most paladins get the majority of their damage from white damage and SoC, so they will see the most DPS results from +strength.

That doesn't mean +strength is better, obviously +spells/healing adds to our heals too, and is more well rounded. But people who say it adds as much dps as strength are mistaken.

PS- This is off topic for this thread, but you might want to mention that our class description got changed. We are no longer 'tanks overall'

12:44 AM  
Anonymous Suicidal Zebra said...

Also worth mentioning as it has a significant bearing on this topic is that JoC appears to have been changed to work from Spell Crit rather than Melee Crit. It seems to me that this is a substancial nerf to Ret paladins, but Holy-Heavy Paladins may actually prefer this new iteration of JoC. This is as of the current test realm btw.

As things stand, SoC procs and Hammer of Wrath appear to remain melee-crit based.

3:50 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Also worth mentioning as it has a significant bearing on this topic is that JoC appears to have been changed to work from Spell Crit rather than Melee Crit. It seems to me that this is a substancial nerf to Ret paladins, but Holy-Heavy Paladins may actually prefer this new iteration of JoC. This is as of the current test realm btw.


Did blue say this, or is it speculation? Did someone run the numbers? If so that is a big nerf to ret paladins. It's hard to believe the would make SoC rely on melee crit and JoC rely on spell crit. It is possible though, I've noticed vengence going off a lot less since I spec'ced back into ret last week.

5:57 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Alledgedly someone parsed their JoC output on the test realm and got something like 5% crit rate (with a melee crit rate of ~25%). I would have to go with 'rumoured, with minimal evidence, but as yet uncorroborated' at this stage.

5:07 AM  

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