13 April, 2007

Quote of the Patch

Q u o t e:
You mean you might need to actually mana pot after tossing a few Holy Lights? Unheard of, I know.
I guess Holy Paladins will have to just rely on the diversity of their heals now like other healers, right? Use their HoTs, big instant heals, group heals, and preemptive mitigation spells to be useful.

As the guy below puts it, "sick burn on self".


Anonymous Callindrill said...

I remember when this was said on this blog:

"Fact: Vengeance is now 10%, Crusader Strike is now 10 seconds. Deal with it and accept it."

So in the same vein:

"Fact: Illumination now returns 50% of mana cost. Deal with it and accept it."

1:36 PM  
Anonymous Xgelis said...

Very well said. Yep those are facts indeed. I'm with ya callindrill. :D

3:26 PM  
Blogger Mastgrr said...

I happen to believe it's an unfair comparison, but yeah, say that if you want to.

3:53 PM  
Blogger Vaelin said...

Callindrill has it spot on, and beat me to it. All the high-and-mighty Holy Paladins who told the melee Paladins to "deal with it" when Vengeance - a talent that had been unchanged for 2 years - got nerfed, are now QQing about one in their tree. Poetic justice.

4:22 PM  
Anonymous Gwaendar said...

The good thing is that contrary to the druid nerf a couple of minor patches ago we don't even require a different class (like warrior) to gloat over a nerf, we're dumb enough to cackle with glee at the gimping of our own talent trees.

That's the beauty of hybrids, we can function pretty much independently of any other class even for nerf cries and Schadenfreude.

4:30 PM  
Blogger Vaelin said...

I honestly think there would be a lot less crying if Blizzard had given the class more thought from the outset to ensure continuity of playstyle. I believe that at the heart of the divide in the Paladin community is the fact that speccing one thing reinforces a melee playstyle, while speccing another favors a caster playstyle.

4:45 PM  
Anonymous callindrill said...

The problem is more that one spec (which we won't name) views the other spec as 'n00bs'. This is why there's such schadenfreude in the latter spec.

5:01 PM  
Blogger Scott said...

Words cannot even express how completely unhappy I am right now. The nerf to Illumination (and Spiritual Attunement to a lesser degree) really has me considering re-rolling.


5:05 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I´m a Holy Pally, thinking about canceling my WoW account and re-rolling someday.

Thank you Blizzard, you made my decision much easier.

5:13 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

blizz should rethink paladins completely, because now it's terrible for everyone ... just lvled 70 palla, ok, re-rolling mage...

8:04 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ah yes, both my paladin and my shadow priest got a bit more messed up. I'm not really even sure what to think of the classes anymore. To be honest i cancelled my accounta few weeks ago more out of boredom than from the patch rumors. But it looks like I will be getting out before all this class balancing crap throws the entire game away.

It also doesn't seem like this tweaking is coming from any kind of vision/strategy-- simply adjusting some dps/heal chart results.

It gets to the point where all of it is such a cluster-fck that it's easier just to walk away and find something that you have fun playing again.

9:19 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

While it's easy for ret paladins to rub this in the face of holy paladins, really at some point paladins should learn a nerf to their class isn't good for them, even if it's a tree they don't play.

And Callindrill, I remember when that was said as well, and I thought it was unfair.

9:24 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Callindrill has it right on the money.

10:47 PM  
Blogger Micah said...

I've been playing my warrior. My Pally hasn't logged on to do anything valuable in a while.

I got sick recently, and somehow that made me want to quit WoW, so I did.

And now, I'm glad I quit before the notes came out because no one can accuse me of jumping ship due to the crap-patch. =D


11:04 PM  
Anonymous Gwaendar said...

- Holy nerf makes it harder to keep doing the one lone aspect in healing at which we were good, which is, single-target healing. Also making us a two-spell caster into a single spell caster. Consequences: Pallies less desired as healer. More priests and druids who actually got burned out on healing during the last two years will be forced back into healing, for, perhaps, the sole benefit of a very small complaining minority to which their position on a healing meter is more important than a raid's overall efficiency.
- Prot buff doesn't really touch upon the problems with protection. We generate even more threat when we were already the king of aggro hill but the bug with blocking while casting instants is entirely ignored. Nobody tanks respawning trash like pallies now, but in general, we're still the last choice for a tank
- Ret got a slight boost in DPS, but the most compelling added benefit of taking one Ret pallie in a raid has vanished. As a pure damage dealer, we're still the absolute last choice (more so since mentalities are hard to change), and nobody will take a Ret pallie as dps / buff with the new sanctity aura.

In terms of raiding, two trees lose and one doesn't win anything. We just got the means to level a bit faster to the point where we can be second, third or last fiddle to every other single class in the game.

Let's face it, we have become last year's druids. To make the matters worse, though, instead of speaking as one, like most other classes do, we are actually fighting amongst ourselves instead of fighting as one to improve our lot.

Depressing, really. However, I will not make grand posts about quitting or rerolling. I'll stick to my slow levelling pace and hope that by the time I get to 70 and fit for KAR (in about 1 to 2 years) things have brightened up. In the meantime, tanking 5-men remains enjoyable, and I'll still end up top healer in BGs. I only wish that this class I've finally grown to love more than my old warlock had better perspectives.

11:54 PM  
Blogger crazyflanger said...

After TBC launched paladins really only had one thing going for them. Being bad ass healers. The two mana nerfs we recieved this patch is going to lower our mana-effeciency down a lot. No more grouping with a shadow-battery.

I'm glad I also have a 70 mage.

I fear this will lead to many paladins jumping over to Ret or Prot. The only reason I stuck with Holy is because it was a beast of a tree and I loved the illumination talent. I could always use Divine intervention to get a free massive heal........

now I can get half a free heal....whoopy....

I think a lot of pallies are just gonna go ret to pvp with...and then there will be no healers

All druids are feral.

All preists are shadow.

All shamans can't heal anyways.

All paladins are no Ret/prot.....

Yes..all of them, 100%...or atleast thats how it will seem when you try and get a healer for your heroic.

12:43 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

gwaendar, ret pallys didnt get buffed pvp, the changes are pve buff. pvp we took a nerf because we now have to crit twice to get the same effect as old vengeance

10:00 AM  
Anonymous callindrill said...

"Let's face it, we have become last year's druids. To make the matters worse, though, instead of speaking as one, like most other classes do, we are actually fighting amongst ourselves instead of fighting as one to improve our lot."

I'm sorry, but there were no calls to unity when vengeance was nerfed. There were no calls to unity when Holy Paladins would make "shut up and heal or reroll you dumbass retn00b" posts on the forum every day for a year and a half.

Now, when the shoe is on the other foot and Holy gets a nerf, there are sudden calls to unity? We should care because this 'affects us all?'

Talk to the Holy Paladins blaming 'retn00bs' for these changes on the forums, as if our dwindling ranks magically have the ear of Blizzard.

All we're doing is giving what we've gotten for a looong time.

4:02 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

''All we're doing is giving what we've gotten for a looong time. ''

yes we all know thats the best way to improve our class and solve our problems...keep it up - not...

9:08 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yes. It's hilarious when holy does it, but really unfair when ret does so. And of course, those who like physical violence more are expected to take the high road. Be realistic, you're not really going to get an inch that way. And holy paladins who've been saying that ret was fine all this time? They do deserve it. If you haven't said it, ignore it. If you have, apologize or shut up. Being high handed isn't going to help your cause or anyone else's.

At this point, the class does need to pull together and present a unified face of 'buff ret and prot, restore holy'; but it's not really likely to happen, or at least not on the WoW forums.

12:09 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Franky anonymous I think myself and a lot of the ret pallys dont care to a degree. After being attacked by holy pallys for a very long time, called to get nerfed by holy pallys its sickens the stomache. Now that holy pallys are getting nerfed we are getting blamed for the nerf. The vast majority of holy pallys on the forums need to get over themselves and stop blaming ret pallys for literally everything.

1:35 AM  
Anonymous nonnobis said...

On the WoW forums, Duljan reveals the result of fairly extensive testing of MP5 gear and crit gear. He compares them to each other on both live and test.


The results:

"Live Servers (Pre-Nerf)

MP5 set

Flash of Light - 128 casts on average until 00m

Holy Light Rank 4 - 155 casts on average until 00m

Crit set

Flash of Light - 118 casts on average until 00m

Holy Light Rank 4 - 122 casts on average until 00m

PTR (Post-Nerf)

MP5 set

Flash of Light - 102 casts on average until 00m

Holy Light Rank 4 - 121 casts on average until 00m

Crit set

Flash of Light - 80 casts on average until 00m

Holy Light Rank 4 - 88 casts on average until 00m

From Live to PTR

Average nerf for Paladins that stack mp5 - 21%

Average nerf for Paladins that stack crit - 30%


As you can see, telling paladins to "stack mp5 instead of crit, noobs" does not solve the problem, because even those people that stack mp5 are getting nerfed.... granted, not as much as those that have been stacking spell crit gear.

Also, take notice of the fact that stacking crit gear actually made me go 00m faster than I did when I utilized mp5 gear. In each case, I was able to cast more heals using my mp5 set than with my crit set, indicating that spell crit stacking + illumination was never the problem. Those times where you saw a paladin heal forever without ever running out of mana were nothing more than extremely lucky strings of crits, which is proven by this testing to occur extremely rarely."

7:06 AM  
Blogger Vaelin said...

I see the Illumination nerf and the Vengeance nerf in much the same way. Before the addition of talents like Fanaticism and Crusader Strike, Vengeance at 15% fit perfectly well into Blizzard's little boxed vision for Paladin DPS. With the added chance to crit, and extra attack increasing the number of chances to crit, it presented a problem (no, not that the class was suddenly fun to play) - Paladins were doing "more damage than intended." Thus, a talent that had been unchanged for 2 years got nerfed - because talents were added that hadn't existed for 2 years.

Illumination was nerfed for the same reason. With the addition of new talents that boosted spell crit, combined with much more spell crit itemization, Paladin healing efficiency was "greater than intended."

People who are saying that it was un-called for really need to step back and see it in terms of the big picture. You can't deny that something was seriously jacked up when raiding guilds were having their Priests spec Shadow and their Paladins acting as main healers.

I do think that they should have gone about the Spiritual Attunement nerf better. In fights where a Paladin tank isn't really taking much damage, this new change hurts their longevity by eliminating that extra mana from overhealing.

7:49 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


9:30 AM  
Anonymous callindrill said...

"yes we all know thats the best way to improve our class and solve our problems...keep it up - not..."

Way to miss the point completely.

If you guys stopped talking down to ret, maybe there'd be unity. But you guys just can't resist it. Even here you're lecturing us about how there needs to be unity.

4:20 PM  
Blogger Vaelin said...

@ Anon - Vengeance stacking to 30% is clearly a bug (unfortunately). Don't get comfy with that one, or you'll be even more disappointed when it's fixed - probably in the next PTR build. My guess is they finished the coding for the stacking but not the reduction. Thus, it's stacking the current live Vengeance 3 times.

4:45 PM  
Anonymous Leord said...

Short comment to the guild someone was in that didnt discriminate against builds..

I am still 15/0/46, and raid in Kara, but even so I am of basically no use to the raid as melee. So i put on a (good) healing gear and heal.

Before 2.0.1, I could keep DPS in the top 5 in a 40 man raid. Sure, I had Sulfuras, only one of the best concurrent pally weapons out there, but even with Earthshaker, I was of use for damage!

2.0.1 Obviously made it almost easy to top DPS in many cases, and most 5-mans as well. Even with 10 sec CS, I could make it, but aggro was a concern.

Regardless of specc or equipment at lvl 70, I have no chance in hell of reaching anywhere near the same amount. Normally 50% of the second highest DPS:er in a 5-man. And I have good gear!

I am a firm believer of that a hybrid class should be able to specialize heavy in talents, gear and enhancements and outdo an non-specced "pure" class. Great amounts of effort should count for something of what you want to do with your character.

If Blizzard decides there must be a top cap on damage, regardless of specc and gear, so be it. Give me utility. Some way to be of use in *melee*. I didnt sign up to be a caster.

11:47 PM  

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