23 March, 2007

Crusader Strike (of Utility)

Kilroy of Dragonmaw [A] responds to this forum post with a great suggestion for how to improve Retribution Paladin utility in raids.

I'd rather see something more creative with Crusader Strike though. Maybe if it did a different utility effect based on which Seal we have active at the time?

SoL + CStrike = group heal
SoW + CStrike = group mana regen
SoJ + CStrike = stops all enemy movement for a short time in a certain radius (or something)
SotC + CStrike = group attack speed increase
SoC + CStrike = I dunno....maybe make all damage done by the party into Holy damage for a certain amount of time?

The best ideas seem to be CS used with SoL, SoW, and SotC. I don't necessarily think every seal would need to have utility in conjunction with CS. SoJ is probably the weakest suggestion, and a potential coding nightmare. As far as SoC goes, Blizzard has said their combat system doesn't allow for a mix of physical and magic damage. An additional debuff on the target, on the other hand, may be workable. Something that increases overall damage dealt to the target by like 2-3%.

It makes me happy to see more people getting involved in offering positive suggestions on how to buff the weak aspects of the class.

15 Comments:

Anonymous Proudfoot said...

Hmm an interesting idea... however Blizz would never do something so complicated, that would take some work. I would really like to see the group heal, the group mana regen, or the straight dmg buff regardless of what seal is active. Whichever one Blizz chooses (if any) I would be happy. They could even lower the spell dmg coefficent since Ret pallys don't go for heavy spell dmg anyways. I'd rather our SoC and CS were based on more melee stats anyways.

5:21 PM  
Anonymous Proudfoot said...

...Possibly even make it "weapon dmg plus 10% of your atk pwr in holy dmg"

5:24 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sounds like a hack to get around the fact that the seal system still sucks.

It would be nice though, and I still say CS should have the 3% more damage done to the target debuff. That would at least get paladins on the front lines (maybe).

-Vir

8:13 PM  
Anonymous Chlo said...

Ret paladins with 3/3 Sanctified Crusader give everyone, not just the party, a 3% greater chance to crit with a physical attack. That stacks with:

- reducing the attack power/crit/dodge of the boss monster.
- giving everyone in your party 6% more healing when healing is done to them.
- the ability to refresh the entire raid's judgements, if any besides your own has been made.

Is the only solution for Retribution tree to pile on more group buffs?

If I recall, was not the consensus that the Retribution tree perfect when Vengeance was at 15% and CS at 6 seconds? Did those two nerfs break it so terribly? Or does it have Holy tree envy?

10:45 PM  
Anonymous Proudfoot said...

"- reducing the attack power/crit/dodge of the boss monster."

I've never seen vindication affect a boss.

"was not the consensus that the Retribution tree perfect when Vengeance was at 15% and CS at 6 seconds? Did those two nerfs break it so terribly?"

Giving back 15% Vengeance and 6 second CS would give us more DPS... which is what blizz doesn't want. Giving us more utility would be more desireable for raids and therefore possibly justify a place for a ret pally. Maybe its just closed minded raid leaders or maybe there truely is a better use of the raid spot. Something to think about.

11:03 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

People said it was perfect at 60.


also, the utility they have now isnt enough to bring them over a full time dps class or over an extra druid or shamen.

11:34 PM  
Anonymous Suicidal Zebra said...

Further to Proudfoot's comments:

- giving everyone in your party 6% more healing when healing is done to them.

Given how overhealing is still such a big issue 6% increased healing is of dubious value in a PvE environment.

- the ability to refresh the entire raid's judgements, if any besides your own has been made.

No, CS doesn't allow you to do this. One CS miss/parry/dodge after the first will cause the judgments to fade, and this is not reliable enough to be a feasible PvE effect. This was not the case with CS at 6 seconds cooldown, which required 3 consecutive misses for judgments to not be refreshed (under a 20sec judgment duration).

Retribution was seen as extremely powerful with 6sec CS, 15% Veng because it brought a significant sustained DPS level (to a level where aggro would be a big problem in fact), whilst also providing utility in DPS through Sanctified Crusader. The judgement refresh effect was just gravy.

Ret at 10sec CS and 10% Veng provides a much lower DPS level for a similar talent investment. Utility in DPS was similar but the judgement refresh effect, once really thought of as a 'oh, that's nice' was analysed and found wanting (i.e. it is conceptually flawed). Now, the Ret Paladins DPS level is too low to warrant a place based upon simple 3% extra crit to a 10-man or 25-man raid as utility. Speccing Holy/Prot makes more sense in the context of a large group or raid.

Simply, what is better, a Holy Priest + Ret Paladin or Holy Paladin + Shadow Priest? The latter is much, much better. Is it worth bringing a Ret Paladin as your third Paladin to a 25man raid... the general concensus is a no, as a Prot-specced off-tank is a more tempting proposition.


Now, there are two solutions to 'fixing' Ret, the first being a general DPS increase (which is not going to happen because of huge PvP balance issues), the second being group buffs to bring utility in DPS which are less of an issue in the short PvP battles but handy in longer PvE fights. Which is why many Paladins, both here and on the forum, are pushing for more utility in this form.

And really, Judgements interacting with CS is the best way to do with, for which I commend the original forum post.

1:35 AM  
Blogger Marcus said...

That's an excellent idea, provided the strike absorbs the seal. I think it's about the only conceivable way you could have improved judgement NOT be mandatory for a damage dealing pally.

4:09 AM  
Anonymous Proudfoot said...

"Ret paladins with 3/3 Sanctified Crusader give everyone, not just the party, a 3% greater chance to crit with a physical attack." -Chlo

I just noticed this... Sanctified Crusader gives 3% crit from ALL attacks including spells, not just physical.
So it is true that Ret paladins do bring "some" utility to the table especially IF the group is large... however not enough to justify "wasting" a raid slot in many minds.

I really don't understand Blizzards thinking on the Ret tree. Investing at least 41 points in ret will make you a lackluster healer at best, and a subpar tank. They act as though we shouldn't possibly be able to put out dmg AND heal the way paladins do. They don't seem to even acknoledge that a Ret pally's heals are weak and drain his mana for doing dmg. I'm not saying we should be the highest dps class by any means but if we are to be the lowest DPS class in our DPS tree then we should have UNMATCHED support. After all the Paladin should be an inspiration to all near him... right?

8:17 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

[b]Simply, what is better, a Holy Priest + Ret Paladin or Holy Paladin + Shadow Priest? [/b]

There is nothing to compare here. Toss in Holy Paladin + Class X versus Holy Paladin + Shadow PRiest, Shadow Priest will win hands down.

9:32 AM  
Blogger Rezicavich said...

blizz wont do anything to improve ret's raid viability, BC is all casters now and they will only fix the classes they play... warlock, mage, hunter and shaman. if blizz played a ret pally in pvp/pve we will see improvements as a ret pally, otherwise just hang around till war online comes, roll a warrior-priest and smash faces while keeping your comrades alive on the front lines... after thats the true mechanics of the holy warrior yes? :)

10:07 AM  
Blogger Rezicavich said...

if crusader strike was back at 6seconds and vengeance at 15% ret would be alot better in pve than it is now. you will easily be able to maintain judgements on the target through crusader strike. even making your vengeance proc heal the party for X amount woul dbe good. but i always would like to see another combat option for ret.

so yes i'd agree that nerfing vengeance and crusader strike did break the tree a bit. how many warlocks you see complain in patch 2.0 that ret was taken them out within the duration of HoJ? retard blizz should have known that the stamina increase in BC would have equalized that. they shouldn't have released BC talents b4 BC was even out. it just screams nerfage for classes

10:13 AM  
Anonymous Leord said...

Just wanted to point out:

Even though they cant MIX different damage types of one damage source (like some old ranged attacks never worked), it DOES work to have a chance on hit damage at 100% (or lesser.

Having SoC in this case could simply be that after hitting the mob with CS and SoC active, nearby party members next hit will have a "SoC proc", kinda. Just based off of the paladin's CS hit. And perhaps just melee to fit, but that doesnt really matter.

After having SoC activated, hitting CS, melee nearby all have a ppm chance to do a *set* amount of damage, based on the first CS (would not work to give a weak SoC to all, as some use daggers or fast otehr weapons). Something in the lines of 400ish damage with (spell)critchance.

Or instead of having party only, having a very short range, 10 yards in each direction, and all chars in there.

Oh, well, thinking freely here =P. As Said before, needs to be a big utility to allow a spot for pala in melee.

8:50 PM  
Anonymous Leord said...

Besides you can have chance on hit damage, it allmost seemed more appropriate to have a 10 sec (or whatever CS cool) +5% crit to spells, ranged and physical. +8% crit isnt a sneezer.

9:55 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

was not the consensus that the Retribution tree perfect when Vengeance was at 15% and CS at 6 seconds? Did those two nerfs break it so terribly?

It was, at 60. Now at 70 most classes have gained higher DPS and more utility through their level 60-70 spells, especially in pvp.

The retribution paladin got nothing for pvp 60-70 other than Avenging Wrath, and AW simply isn't enough for a class that is lacking combat options.

Lacking those options goes back to the original design document, when paladins were undead killers, and had good dps. Blizzard wanted to make them 'different' from warriors, so warriors were given a buttload of options, paladins were given few.

Then, before the original launch they changed to the seal/judgement system, lowered paladin dps, but never gave them anything in melee to make up for it.

9:57 PM  

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