08 June, 2007

Not enough Hybrid from a Hybrid

Valandur emails me and says (this is slightly stripped down):
I have never wanted to be a pure tank or a pure healer. I figured that since a pure retribution build had little utility for raids, I would be a hybrid.

...I went to the Armory and looked for upgrades to my current mix of greens and blues. There is NOTHING that has more +spell damage than what I am currently wearing. Which means not only am I useless on raids, but there is no chance of a reward that will make me more effective in a hybrid role in raids. Blizzard has only created gear that will benefit a healadin, a tankadin or a ret pally that is only concerned with white damage.
This is why I loved Judgement so much. But now in today's game it is rather impossible.


Blogger Gunn said...

I find your statements to be untrue.

How much holy damage you rolling with?

Cause i'm at about 700

and I'm Holy/Prot spec.

White damage is not for Paladins

6:35 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Paladins are pretty much three classes crammed into one. Just the way things turned out I guess.

8:16 PM  
Blogger ten mohican said...

Reckoning pallys are hybrid. Can tank/heal/dps -->(lol k im not kidding)

If you want to see an effective build check out my pally on arthas

Tenmohican- Dwarf Paladin.

Not quite geared yet, however has these must have talents

~ardent defender (cant kill me basically before i kill you)
~illumination 100% for %60 mp gain after crit (mp management for heals)
~Great burst damage combo of
Crusader debuffed-->HoJ-->JoC-->JoR spammage And if you can get a weapon with ability procs u can wreck out damage nicely.

How this build works is having less armor (get reckoning to proc more, while being sustain from most damage by redoubt) and having access to spammable ranged damage and being able to pop up heals when needed. Not the fastest DPS paladin out there, but definatly one of the toughest fights you would go against.

I pwn hunters, shamans, warriors(non-ms), rogues (stoneform ftw), and most druids (feral 65+ druids = overpowered imo but w/e).

With the resiliency gear available pretty easily at 70 and some +crit trinkets /rings/neck u can get ur crit chance 20-25% which is more than adequate for this build (proc-based skills arent consistant, but being that this build can last long enough to get a few reckoning's off it works).

The player behind the char makes a big difference too, I probably put alot more effort into making a non-ftw class do soo well.

10:21 PM  
Blogger Gunn said...

I think your spec would be useless for Raiding.
Not only are you going to be worthless as a healer, your also only going to be useful as a tank if you're gettin alot of heals due to having no mana pool. Your gear for ret is no good because you're mainly going 1-handed. 10 Pts into Holy tree for +divine int and seal of righteousness. You will have much more satisfaction with it.

Also stop with the healing gear, you're not fooling anyone.

Real Pallies are rolling with +1200 healing.

12:38 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Hybrid"-ish gear exists but takes a lot of time to get. Look up the blue Grand Marshal's scaled set and the epic Marshal's scaled set. The Gladiator's scaled set is even better. As a ret pally, if you want more spell damage (which I think would be kind of odd) you can always get enchants or gems for that.

- Kayna

12:46 AM  
Blogger Vaelin said...

Ah, the great MMO trinity: Healing, Tanking, and Damage.

Or, as I like to call it: work, work and fun

Guess which class is the only one billed as the work-work hybrid?

Wouldn't it be great if a game came out that diminished the need for first two, making them more fun, and ensuring that every class is capable of kicking substantial ass given the right circumstances?


5:43 AM  
Blogger Xgelis said...

the paladin you see now in WoW isn't even a 'real' hybrid anymore.
Let's just quit and wait for WAR next year. I'm personally having high expectations for that game, espcially the WP career.

- My personal thoughts and comments. No hard feelings to anyone here.

4:15 PM  
Blogger Kaziel said...

Not everyone thinks as you, Vaelin. Some of us actually like tanking, or healing. In fact, I've given up playing a DPS class (Mage) to play a prot spec paladin. Yet despite dealing little damage, I'm having more fun now than I've had in months.

You don't like WoW. You think it's a failure in game design. We get it. So if you hate it so, why are you still here? Why do you continue to rag on a game that some of us actually enjoy? If it's some misbegotten belief that you want to "guide us to the light that WAR will be", I assure you, most if not all of us are quite aware of WAR and looking towards at least some aspect of it anxiously. But some of us continue to enjoy WoW for what it is, and your constant griping does nothing to enhance our time here.

10:18 PM  
Blogger Vaelin said...

Browsing the class trend graphs can be eye-opening. The Paladin in particular seems to be on the general decline - more so than other classes.

Here as seen on the Alliance side for all realms, Paladins stand as the median in popularity, but reflect a steady decline trend matched only by the Shaman class. Other classes, by comparison, seem to be holding in their popularity (if you smooth out the periodic fluctuations).

On the Horde side of things for all realms, Paladins are not only exhibiting the steepest decline but have also dropped two standings to the position of 2nd least popular class (most recently overtaken by the Shamans). Of the general increase trend seen in late May, the Paladin "upsurge" appears to be the least-steep of all the classes.

As holder of a BA in Political Science, with some education in the realm of statistics, it would be ingenuous of me to attach causality for this trend to any one particular factor or group of factors. If I were to venture a guess, though, I'd say that WoW gamers are increasingly dissatisfied playing "the healer-tank hybrid." There's a reason why so much of the LFG spam ends in "need tank/healer." Facilitating others' fun gets real old real fast.

5:44 AM  
Blogger Kaziel said...

Facilitating others' fun gets real old real fast.

Again, I am "facilitating" no one's fun but my own. I am tanking, and enjoying every second of it. I could respec to retribution, or I could start playing the 70 Mage I have leveled, or I could reroll as a purely DPS class or a "hybrid" class that DPS is "accepted", and play that role, but I choose not to. Why? Because it's fun. Your basic idea is flawed, Vaelin, because you presume your view is the only one that matters. You see anything that's not a DPS role as work and un-fun. While I have no doubt that to some tanking or healing is not fun to them, that is not everyone. Do not presume to speak for us. I will now go back to my tanking paladin, go tank a few 5-mans or maybe a heroic in my prep to tank for Karazhan for my guild. And I will have fun the entire time, thank you very much.

6:35 AM  
Anonymous Sune said...

Just as an aside, check out this thread from the Wow Europe paladin forums - patch note history of the paladin class. Its quite depressing reading: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html;jsessionid=0EC56835DEA8E6BCE001D7B259307233.app09_01?topicId=286592162&sid=1

8:26 AM  
Blogger Tiberian PG said...

Personally, it's not so much an issue with being the healer/tank, as it is the way healing works in WoW.

I love being the rallying point for a group, buffing, cleansing, healing, and basically leading my allies, and letting them do their thing (bash some heads, pretty much). Being the holy warrior in full plate striding to the front of combat has always been pretty darn cool for me.

However, it does get a little boring when all you do is click different allies with your UI and hit the same few heal buttons again and again, for an entire fight.

The appeal of WAR's style of healing is supposed to be the fact that not only do you have the chance to do something else, but that you're required to, so you're less likely to get pigeonholed into standing way at the back, spamming heals over and over ad nauseum.

At least, that's the idea...

8:03 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Most paladins who rerolled know what they got into. Those of us that rolled near lauch did not.

So why don't we reroll? For a lot of us leveling takes a lot of time, and you grow a bit attached to your characters, or in my case you are famous on your server.

the 'work work fun' part is so true...

10:07 PM  
Blogger Vaelin said...

Sune - that's one of the most depressing posts I've read.

Patch 1.1 essentially replaced the class with something entirely different, but retained the name "Paladin." What's more sad is the look back at what the game could have been - an awesome world for faction conflict and wide-scale PvP fun. Imagine being the bane of the Undead race, called upon buy your fellow Alliance to wade into the enemy and send them back to their graves or run fleeing in fear - something no other class could do. Instead, we spent our battles prancing around the periphery watching health bars and trying to stay alive.

8:28 PM  
Blogger bsmith13 said...

I am the one that sent the e-mail starting this topic, so I thought I'd chuck in some more loose change...

I realize that there are plenty of paladins that enjoy healing and tanking. Obviously, Blizzard has done something right with those two trees, since healadins and tankadins truly enjoy themselves. (It could be argued that healadins are broken in the direction of being TOO efficient, since they can and do outheal the primary healing class, but that is another topic.)

My point was and continues to be that Paladins who expect to be able to be a hybrid class (or, heaven forbid, actually do DPS) will not enjoy being a paladin endgame. The play styles are different. I know that it is a delicate balancing act for Blizzard to ensure that all classes are suitable for both pve and pvp. I know that Healadins and Tankadins are having a good time. I refuse to accept the statement that since I refuse to be either of these, I am playing the class wrong. Since I leveled to 70 in the Retribution tree, there should be a legitimate role for me as a hybrid or DPS in the endgame. That hasn't happened. It doesn't appear that it will happen. I am in the grieving process, and it is only a matter of finding a game that allows me to play in a way that I enjoy for me to quit WOW altogether.


12:18 AM  
Blogger Tim said...

most high end guilds prefer warriors over prot pallies as they are the kings of damage mit.

no high end guild will take a ret pally on a raid (unless as an experiment/joke)

this leaves us with healing. bloody hard work if you ask me.

we need the quickest reactions, the best gear (or conversely we are the class which must not be worst geared in a raid), and the most continuous spell spamming with a keen regard to timing. it's a thankless task! i'd love to be able to pew pew, but this is maybe because i've never had the chance to.

8:04 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Paladin Holy 91.73
Paladin Protection 3.27
Paladin Retribution 4.91

Ah the massive amount of non healing paladins. I find it ironic that trolls still yell us to learn how to heal as it happens to be that most of paladins are healing.

5:47 PM  
Blogger domenic said...

"it would be ingenuous of me to attach causality"

I think the word you were looking for was disingenuous, Dr. Vaelin.

9:52 PM  
Blogger Vaelin said...

Nope, I was right. Try slotting in synonyms for the two words in question - naive/unschooled/foolish for ingenuous, and dishonest/deceitful/underhanded for disingenuous. The meaning I sought to convey was much more in line with innocent blunder than calculated misdirection.

Nice try, though.

6:32 AM  

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