04 November, 2006

Protection Sweetness and Retribution Sourness

Who says that Blizzard doesn't listen to us?

Gilthorn spills the beans.

I'm literally crapping myself in the pants.

Improved Righteous Fury now gives 2/4/6% reduction to ALL.

Improved Divine Shield has been changed to not only decrease Divine Shield cooldown but give you 3/6% total more stamina!

Oh my god? This is just what Protection Paladins wanted. And now Righteous Fury has a use outside of PVE as well! Oh my gawed. I am so happy. Protection just got so much better!

No good news on Ret: Crusader Strike is once again 10 seconds and Vengeance is once again 10%. Oh well...


Tier 4 sets! Three: tanking, damage and healing.


Blogger Ghmou / Micah said...

Oh my god. That is incredible.

Does RF have to be ACTIVE to get the 6% damage decrease? Or is that in general?

And the Imp Divine Shield thing is... I can't even BEGIN to describe my joy.

4:30 AM  
Blogger Mastgrr said...

Only when RF is active. Very cool trade-off imho: decrease damage taken for increase chance to get aggro?

Also something very useful for healing, cause RF only applies to Holy damage - not healing. Effectively making you as a healer 6% more sturdy.

4:40 AM  
Blogger Ghmou / Micah said...

Good point mastgrr.

I like it. This is ALSO 6% more mitigation against all targets other than Shaman and Priests.


Both of these buffs are butter in both PvP and PvE. I'm very happy that they weren't new talents, and were instead applied to existing talents.

Next up is Ardent Defender: Adds 5% to Orgasm crit.

5:09 AM  
Anonymous Thordurin of Bloodhoof said...

If you mouse over the cost of the items, it gives what I assume is the name of the set.

"Fallen Champion"

6:44 AM  
Anonymous Vaelin said...

My thoughts:

Retribution is once again weak and boring. I'll be throwing my planned spec out the window. A 10 second ability is too long a cooldown in my opinion to add real interactivity - something people were really starting to enjoy on the beta server. I won't be PvPing at all on my paladin anymore, either. I was originally planning on doing that with my hunter, but the latest info indicates that traps will now have a 3 second arming time, about half their previous radius, and much more easily detectable.

Guess I'll have to give in to Blizzard and roll a Warlock for PvP like everyone else.

7:07 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

PvP is all about burst damage. With the addition of Shamans to the Alliance and the subsequent clarification of the hybrid roles, Paladins become the only class in the game unable to spec for meaningful damage-dealing. We will become the quintessential PvE class that's no fun to play in PvP. Such is the sadness of being newly defined as the "Healing/Tanking" hybrid.

7:11 AM  
Anonymous Ciranon said...

On another prot-positive note, Avenger's Shield has had its daze duration increased from 3 to 6 seconds. A ranged, triple-HoJ? Yes, please.

7:53 AM  
Anonymous Vaelin said...

You guys realize that the daze is only a snare of sorts, not a stun or interrupt right? Think Concussive Shot rather than HoJ. At best, the damage from the shield impact will delay casting like any damaging attack.

8:01 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The daze has been at 6 seconds for well over a month now.

I don't think I can justify the changes any longer. When I hear guildmates talking about their 3-4k crits I stop to ask myself "and Blizzard said Ret DPS was too much?". As a Paladin I never once expected damage of that sort but it's puzzling when we've got other classes that regularily 1-2 shot other players yet Blizzard nerfs the lowest DPS class in the game? I wouldn't be too upset if our survivability was boosted yet that hasn't happened in any meaningful way.

Yes, it will be nice for Righteous Fury to have a PVP purpose now, but it'll just be purged anyways. With the mana cost on it being quite hefty, it's not something you'll be recasting once it's been removed. Of course with Divine Shield removable now as well, I am left again asking "Where is the survivability?" A 2.5 sec heal? We all know how it screams "INTERRUPT ME!". Slow heals are not defensive. I think I die more often from getting school locked than by not even attempting the heal.

The addition of a stamina talent is pretty sweet though. Mediocre stamina has been a gripe of mine for almost a year and a half. 6% isn't much but at least it's something. I always felt it was rather silly that the defensive class of WoW had such little health which often led to being 2 shot by a caster or unable to survive a silence/school lockdown before getting a chance to heal again.

At this point I really don't see why you would spec Ret. Perhaps if your guild requested it for the 3% to crit (lol) but aside from that a 15 sec mini nuke or heal from the new Holy Shock combined with talents suchs as Stoicism/Sacred Duty seems to outdo the current state of Ret.

10:49 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Heh, did anyone else see that Cloak of Shadows is now trainable? So now every Rogue in WoW will have a 90% resist chance against spells with the added function of removing all harmful effects currently on them. But hey, we got the uber Consecration as trainable now /sarcasm.

11:04 AM  
Anonymous Davaeorn said...

Hey, our anticipation seems to be buffed too, or were it always 20 defense in beta?

1:17 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The message is clear: Paladins - just don't PvP in the expansion. Tank the dungeons. Heal the "real" classes. Just don't PvP.

3:50 PM  
Anonymous Davaeorn said...

Why are you equaling PvP with DPS?

5:37 PM  
Blogger Lord Vir said...

Lack of DPS isn't as bad as the lack of combat options.

On a 10 second cooldown, CS is much less attractive, as is the top of ret. (pvp wise). Holy shock is only 5 more seconds than CS and is unmitigated. It also gains 43% from spell damage, rather than 40, and spell crit has nice synergy with illumination.

Look at it this way, if you spec ret you have to chase melee crit, strength, +spell damage, int, and stamina. Most of the expansion paladin gear doesn't have melee crit.

If you spec holy, you don't really have to chase melee crit at all, you might not even need SoC with how SoR and SoV look. So it's one less stat to chase, in exchange for better survivability and healing.

It is nice to see they did something for prot, but the changes will mostly be for pve. 6% stamina isn't much, but with raid buffs it will turn out to be nice. Improved Righteous fury was the kind of things paladins need for pvp to actually have survivability vs casters, but of course it's purgable, so GG.

7:38 PM  
Blogger Lord Vir said...

Heh, did anyone else see that Cloak of Shadows is now trainable? So now every Rogue in WoW will have a 90% resist chance against spells with the added function of removing all harmful effects currently on them. But hey, we got the uber Consecration as trainable now /sarcasm.

lol, not only did they get that, but they got a new 41 point talent to replace it, which is basically a charge/blink that requires steath, and gives them a 20% bonus to their openers and sticks them behind their target.... On a 20 second cooldown. lol..and it's in the same tree as prep...

Good times.



Glad I have an alt rogue. :)

7:59 PM  
Anonymous Davaeorn said...

On a sidenote (somehow related) i present to you a 20 man paladin ZG run.


8:31 PM  
Anonymous Leord said...

Where did you see Cloak of shadows trainable?


Seems to be "New Spells Obtained From Talents"?

11:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


Combat healing is bloody unfun with the myriad of interrupt abilities available to players in the game.

Tanking is useless in PvP because players don't obey aggro rules. They go right down the priority list, usually starting with the healers.

The Burning Crusade Paladin will be an all-out PvE class.

11:22 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Okay, while the news that the CS nerf has gone through is depressing to a degree, I'm still a retadin to the end. I like the play style I have, and even 10s for a cool down will provide much needed interactivity. I enjoy the ret tree, and I still see the expansion as an improvement, including PvP. I'm not happy with Blizz for the increased cooldown, or the vengeance nerf, but I'm still getting great buffs in terms of judgments, and I can't wait to try out SoV, and hopefully I'll be wanted in raids as at least an offtank. This is all discouraging stuff being said about the ret tree, but I still want to at least try it. Am I out of line for this?

12:19 AM  
Anonymous Ephor said...

Holy shitbeans, they made me eat my words about prot having nothing except reckoning. Imp Fury is unbelievable. That's 11% DR versus Magic with Imp Res Auras, 11% DR versus ALL with Blessed Life, and 16%(!) versus magic with both!

To quote the holy prayer of Uther: "OMFG!" I never thought I'd see a mage-killer pally build after being pwned by everything with a mana bar since launch.

Also, I think blizz is getting better at community management, tossing in much needed buffs along with the inevitable nerf. I actually don't mind the 10% Vengeance now that I've had time to let it set in, it really opens up options, like getting BOTH Light's Grace (best healing talent) and Blessed Life (former best tanking talent) instead. I still think they went too far w/CS; Holy Shock has had better burst and now beats it in sustained DPS too (so says HolyFury of dps-clac fame), but we'll see...

1:34 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To the guy above me...

You're quite delusional. I had to re-read your post to try and figure out how you came to the conclusion that nerfing and then adding onto that is somehow acceptable. Show me where the other classes have received downgrades to CURRENT non-TBC talents/skills. Divine Shield dispellable, Vengeance down a 1/3, current JoC ranks were nerfed dmg-wise, Holy Shield dmg lowered yet again and then Reckoning gone (whether the new talent will help with tanking or not, it's still a nerf to the PvP Paladin.

Just keep telling yourself that all the minor tweaks are worth losing all that. You're STILL gonna get owned by counterspell. You're still going to kited. You're now strictly a PvE class; even moreso than we are now.

GOGO Divine Illumination! Lol...

10:40 AM  
Anonymous Icehouse said...

Link to Tier 4 sets is down. Anyone know another place to see it?

4:25 PM  
Anonymous Asir said...

OK for all the ret pallys here I'm sorry but I don't really care about your CS nerf. Pallys weren't meant to be damage dealers we were meant to be tank/healer hybrids. If you want a damage dealer in PvP roll a warrior, rogue, mage, warlock other wise heal. I know you all want to run around playing whack-a-mole with a giant two hand mace but it's not going to happen and shouldn't. Shammys were supposed to be DPS/healing Paladins Tanking/Healing now that both factions have both classes you can expect pallys to be more tanking focused and shammies more damage focused. I for one love the fact that I'll be able to tank.

8:26 PM  
Blogger Lord Vir said...

OK for all the ret pallys here I'm sorry but I don't really care about your CS nerf.

Which is exactly the problem with the paladin class. I don't get what is with you guys. Don't any of you ever respec, or just have respect for people who play the class differently than you?

I've spent time healing, tanking, and even DPS'ing (ugg) at one point or another, and I've played just about every paladin spec you could imagine.

I don't get why paladins feel the need to put one another down all the time over their prefered spec.

Pallys weren't meant to be damage dealers

This is sort of silly, warlocks weren't meant to be damage dealers either, they were meant to be debuffers, does that mean they shouldn't be able to do damage?

Back to the paladin, so you think the one class in the game with no ranged attacks outside of talents, no snare, and no way to get into and keep enemies in melee range should also have not be able to do any damage at all? lol.

we were meant to be tank/healer hybrids.

Yep, that is the new flavor of the month. At first it was undead killers, then it was melee based hybrids, then it was 'support', and now it's tank/healer hybrids.

If you want a damage dealer in PvP roll a warrior,

But warriors are tanks, should they be allowed to do damage? By your logic with the paladin they shouldn't be.


Got one of these.


not one of these...


I've got one of these too!

other wise heal.

Does that mean priests, shaman and druids should just heal too? Should warlocks all play affliction and just debuff?

I know you all want to run around playing whack-a-mole with a giant two hand mace but it's not going to happen

I'm sure it will.

and shouldn't. Shammys were supposed to be DPS/healing

Flavor of the month description.

Paladins Tanking/Healing now that both factions have both classes you can expect pallys to be more tanking focused and shammies more damage focused. I for one love the fact that I'll be able to tank.

Better tanking talents will be nice, and it's good to see prot get some extra stamina/mitigation. It's too bad it will be dispellable, since prot pallys should have a place in pvp.

Anyway, Paladins like you are the problem with the paladin community. They are too busying being at each others throats to actually care about the limitations or strengths of the class.

9:44 PM  
Anonymous Asir said...

I PvP with my prot pally all the time and have no trouble taking down rogues, warriors, hunters...casters give me trouble but I expect that being prot spec.

I have been a prot, ret, and holy pally and don't see what Paladins complain about when it comes to damage. They do average damage which is to be expected...some even do great damage with the right gear. I understand that people want more control over their damage and that crusader strike was a good start. However, instead of simply complaining that it is the end of the class learn to adjust. Remember when seal of the crusader was the damage dnyamo and it got nerfed? People freaked out threatened to stop playing their pallys and then discovered how nice SoC could be. I am just tired of hearing how a 4 second change to crusader strike is the end of the world. Would I have liked to see it stay at 6? Of course who wouldn't. Also, I appoligize for my tone in my post above, but I'm just sick of seeing the message boards with the nerf to CS as a result of the buffs to prot. And as for the limitations of the class...tanking was the single larges limitation of the Paladins. Pallys can do good damage, heal exceptionally well, and now will be good tanks.

4:39 PM  
Blogger Suicidal Zebra said...

Yes, I do remember when SotC got nerfed. It was never really that powerful, as it provided much the same DPS before mitigation as SoC, thus better for grinding but not much good in PvP post-40. It was nerfed to be essentially useless, and SoC was the next best thing even if you did have to spec for it. This was not because it was 'nice', but rather because it was the best of a bad bunch.

The whole problem is that we have been adjusting since the year dot and frankly have got tired of it. Now we have to adjust to a prospective Vengence nerf, with a possible up-side of CS, a mediocre strike, being avaliable if we choose to spec deeping into Ret at the expense of talents in Prot and Holy. We have to adjust to a CS which initially provided some raid utility, but now in the view of many is more of a hindrance than a help, and provides barely more DPS than in pre-TBC. We have to adjust to higher Stamina levels in PvP making it extremely difficult for us to down a class given our below-par damage potential. And we have to adjust to so many people saying 'it's fine, L2P' when bitching about how nutty the changes are is the only way to make our concerns heard due to the disgrace that is Blizzards customer interaction.

Frankly, rather than 'learn to adjust', most of us are now 'learning to Warlock'. Those that haven't 'learned to cancell'. I may dust my Paladin off in 5-man and 10-man TBC to hybrid it up, but i'd prefer to solo grind a Prot Warrior than take my undergeared Paladin into Alliance PvP. And spec Reck for instancing? Forgettaboutit.

5:06 PM  

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